Earnings call transcript: PCBL Chemical’s Q1 2025 performance highlights growth

PCBL Chemical Ltd reported its Q1 2025 earnings, showcasing robust financial performance with consolidated revenue reaching INR 2,114 crore. According to InvestingPro data, the company’s revenue grew 16% year-over-year, with a healthy gross profit margin of 30.5%. The company saw a slight decline in its stock price, dropping 0.76% to close at INR 376.65. Despite the stock dip, PCBL’s strategic expansions and innovations signal a promising future, supported by its GOOD overall financial health score from InvestingPro’s comprehensive analysis.

Key Takeaways

• PCBL’s consolidated revenue for Q1 2025 was INR 2,114 crore.
• EBITDA increased by 2.5% quarter-over-quarter, reaching INR 320.5 crore.
• The company expanded its specialty black capacity and commenced a major Carbon Black expansion project.
• Stock price decreased by 0.76% following the earnings report.

Company Performance

PCBL Chemical Ltd demonstrated robust performance in Q1 2025, with significant revenue growth and increased production capacity. The company has positioned itself as a leader in the domestic Carbon Black market, leveraging India’s emerging status as a global manufacturing hub. InvestingPro analysis reveals the company has maintained dividend payments for 11 consecutive years, demonstrating consistent shareholder returns. PCBL’s strategic focus on specialty and high-performance products has contributed to its expanding market presence internationally, with analysts predicting continued profitability this year.

Financial Highlights

• Revenue: INR 2,114 crore, demonstrating growth from the previous quarter.
• EBITDA: INR 320.5 crore, a 2.5% increase quarter-over-quarter.
• Profit Before Tax: INR 120 crore.
• Profit After Tax: INR 94 crore.
• Carbon Black sales volume: 154,093 metric tons, up 2.6% quarter-over-quarter.

Outlook & Guidance

PCBL projects continuous growth in its international sales and aims to reach a Carbon Black capacity of 1,000,000 tonnes by FY 2028. The company is also maintaining its Aquafarm business guidance at an EBITDA of INR 300 crore for FY 2026. With a return on invested capital of 8% and a five-year revenue CAGR of 21%, PCBL demonstrates strong growth potential. A focus on operating leverage and efficiency improvements remains central to PCBL’s strategy. For deeper insights into PCBL’s growth trajectory and valuation metrics, investors can access the comprehensive Pro Research Report available on InvestingPro.

Executive Commentary

• "India should be looked at as a manufacturing hub for the globe," stated Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, emphasizing India’s strategic importance.
• CFO Raj Gupta assured investors, "We are on track to achieve targeted EBITDA per ton," highlighting operational efficiency.
• Kaushik Roy also noted, "The global tire industry is undergoing a structural shift," indicating a broader industry trend that benefits PCBL.

Risks and Challenges

• Potential pricing pressures in upcoming negotiations could affect margins.
• Global economic uncertainties pose challenges to maintaining profit margins.
• The rapid expansion of capacity in the Carbon Black market may lead to supply outpacing demand.
• Competitor plant closures could impact market dynamics and pricing strategies.

PCBL Chemical Ltd continues to expand its footprint in the global market, driven by strategic expansions and product innovations. Despite a slight dip in stock price, the company’s long-term outlook remains positive, supported by its leadership in the Carbon Black industry and ongoing capacity enhancements. InvestingPro subscribers can access additional insights, including 6 more exclusive ProTips and detailed financial health metrics that provide a comprehensive view of PCBL’s market position and future potential.

Full transcript - PCBL Chemical Ltd (PCBL) Q1 2026:

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the PCBL Chemical Limited Q1 FY ’twenty six Earnings Conference Call hosted by ICICI Securities Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then 0 on your touch tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Sanjesh Jain from ICICI Securities.

Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Thanks, Vishakar. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining on for PCBL Chemical Limited Q1 FY ’twenty six results conference call. We have PCBL Chemical management on the call represented by Mr. Kaushik Roy, Managing Director Mr.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer Mr. Anand Kumar, Group Head, Investor Relations and Mr. Pankaj Kedia, Headyah, Headyah, Investor I would like to invite Mr. Taushik Roy to initiate the call with his opening remarks, post which we will have a Q and A session. Over to you, sir.

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Thank you so much. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, a very, very warm welcome to each one of you, and thank you for joining Q1 FY ’twenty six earnings conference call of Isabel Chemical Limited. Today, we’ll be discussing our business and financial performance for the quarter in details. I hope that you got a chance to review our financial results and the investor presentation, which is also available on stock exchanges as well as on your company website. Before we begin, I would like to express my sincere appreciation to all of you for taking the time to join us today and for your continued interest and support in our journey.

Amid rising global uncertainties, including the Iran Israel conflict, India Pakistan tensions, Red Sea disruptions and escalating tariff risk from USA, macroeconomic pressure continued to affect global sentiment, while intensity of dumping into India market has moderated but remains at somewhat elevated level. This is reflected in the pricing environment. Despite this backdrop, PCPL Chemical delivered a steady and stable performance in Q1, marked by volume growth across all key business segments. We remain confident in our ability to navigate the prevailing volatility in business environment and strengthen our competitive edge in the evolving global landscape. The global tire industry is undergoing a structural shift, with manufacturing steadily moving towards cost efficient hubs like India, driven by the need to optimize cost and enhance supply chain resilience.

Also, as higher tariffs have been imposed on some of the key tire exporting countries, India is well positioned to increase its export share. Recently, one of the major global carbon black producers announced the planned closure of few of its production lines in Europe and North America by the end of this year. This development further underscores the shift in global manufacturing dynamics. It also provides India an opportunity to capture larger market share in the global trade of carbon black. This is likely to be beneficial for PCBL in the long run and as we add capacities.

In India, the tire sector is witnessing steady growth, supported by OEM, expanding replacement market and strengthening of export demand. As the world’s third largest tire market, India continues to play a pivotal role in the global supply chain. Remains strategically aligned to this momentum, backed by its scale, specialty offerings and commitment to innovation and reliability. TCBit is rapidly expanding its capabilities via customized offerings and continued innovation, particularly in high performance applications like battery chemicals and energy storage. With tightening regulations on export of new age battery technologies from China, we are seeing a natural shift in preference towards alternative and reliable sources.

Our upcoming Nanowaste facility is well positioned to offer advanced solutions to meet the growing needs of both domestic and global customers. The pilot plant is expected to be ready by the end of the calendar year, post which the sampling process will commence. We are encouraged by the strong level of interest from the partners across the battery value chain, reinforcing the potential of this new segment for PCBL. Recently, we have been granted a process patent by the U. S.

Patent Office on our proprietary method of developing nanomaterials designed for next generation energy storage technologies. This breakthrough patent represents a significant milestone in our R and D efforts and strengthens our intellectual property portfolio in the energy storage domain. The grant of this patent not only validates our technological innovation, but also opens new avenues for strategic partnerships, licensing opportunities and potential commercialization in global markets. The technology transfer process for our upcoming Acetadene Black expansion has been successfully completed this quarter. We have started detailed engineering work for setting up India’s fast Acetadene Black capacity.

This has applications in high voltage cables, batteries, semiconductor packaging, conductive plastic and paint and coatings, and it is drawing strong interest from the partners across value chain. Currently, is 100% dependent on import of Acetylene Black. Once PCBL facility is ready, we would be well positioned to meet the domestic requirement and serve the global customers. We believe this development will have a significant positive impact on the company’s long term growth prospects and aligns with our vision to be a leader in sustainable energy solutions. Now coming to Carbon Black projects.

The first phase of our brownfield expansion of 30,000 metric ton per annum at PCBL Tamil Nadu has commenced trial runs and will be commissioned in next few weeks’ time. The second phase comprising an additional 60,000 metric ton per annum along with 12 MW green power capacity will be commissioned by the end of this financial year. We are in the process of completing the acquisition of 116 acres of land at Nairoopeta in Andhra Pradesh for a greenfield carbon black project. This new facility will focus on producing rubber black, performance chemicals as well as performance chemicals. CapEx at this site is expected to commence once we obtain environmental clearance in this year.

We are also planning to set up a new line of Specialty Black of 20,000 metric ton per annum capacity, which is expected to be ready over next three to four quarters. This would take our total specialty black capacity to 132,000 metric ton per annum. This line will be coming up in Mundra. CapEx activity is going on for 1,000 metric ton per annum specialty black capacity dedicated for superconductive grades and as expected will be completed by the end of FY twenty twenty six in Palij. We are on track to achieve our targeted capacity of over 1,000,000 tonnes by FY twenty twenty eight.

This provides a good visibility of consistent growth in our Carbon Black business with an improving margin profile. PCPL anticipates continuous growth in international sales volume over next few years, driven by expansion into new geographies, strategic investments in supply chain capabilities, moving up the value chain and the launch of new specialty grades. The demand for Specialty Black continues to be steady. Over the last decade, we been focusing on developing newer grades with varied applications in plastics, pigments, ink, paints and coatings as well as conductive applications. We continue to expand our product portfolio, enter newer geographies while moving up the technology curve.

Now coming to Aquafarm Chemicals. The initiatives taken in last few quarters have started yielding benefits and is setting a strong foundation for accelerated growth in coming years. We are focusing on expanding our business in U. S, Latin America, Europe and Middle East. Corresponding increase in capacity, product development and supply chain capabilities have already been undertaken.

We are also working on end to end integration of the three business segments: Detergents, Oil and Gas Chemicals and Industrial Water Treatment Chemicals, with focus on opportunities for cross selling across business segments and higher capacity utilization. AcoFarm Chemicals expansion projects are on track and nearing commissioning. We have commissioned capacity of 11,500 metric ton per annum to produce polymers at Mahat plant. We are also working on debottlenecking as well as brownfield projects both in India as well as US. We plan to commission additional capacities for PVTC, green chelates, acetyl chloride, granulations, amines, imidazoline in Q2 FY twenty twenty six.

Acoform is on track to deliver strong growth in FY twenty twenty six versus FY twenty twenty five with focus on new product development and capacity growth for the existing portfolio. PCBL has established a resilient and far reaching global footprint supported by a seamlessly integrated manufacturing and distribution network. As the company scales into high margin, high growth segments, it continues to demonstrate discipline in capital allocation and agility in responding to evolving demand cycles. Coming to the quarterly performance, PCBL continued with a steady performance in challenging macro environment. During the quarter, our consolidated sales volume in Carbon Black business increased 2.6% quarter on quarter to reach 154,093 metric tons.

This translates into a capacity utilization of over 97% during the quarter. In EcoFORM business, our sales volume increased by over 9% year on year to 26,523 metric tons during the quarter. Consolidated revenue from operations during the quarter was INR2114 crore. Consolidated EBITDA increased by around 2.5% quarter on quarter to INR320 5 crores. PBT stood at INR 120 crores, while the PAT stood at INR 94 crores.

EBITDA for Mechtichtung Carbon Black business stood at INR 17,791. Of the total Carbon Black sales volume, domestic sales volume stood at 89,606 tons, while international sales volume stood at 64,487 tons in Q1 FY twenty twenty six, which is 2% year on year growth. Moving on to our segmental performance, tire accounted for 91,140 tons, Performance Chemical reported sales volume of 46,888 tons, while Specialty sales volume was 16,065 tons. With this, our Specialty contribution in volumes has reached over 10% from less than 1% in the year 2015. We expect this share to continuously ramp up over the next few years.

We continue to expand our product portfolio and customer base. Aquiform Chemicals reported a steady performance during the quarter. Q1 FY ’twenty six revenue stood at crores with an EBITDA of 50 crore. Under Aquiform, the detergent accounted for 9,419 tons, oil and gas reported sales volume of 8,501 tons, Industrial water treatment accounted for 3,944 tons, while remaining 4,660 tons pertains to other segments. During this time, we also achieved the highest ever power generation and sales volume during the quarter.

Power generation increased by 11% year on year from 194,000,000 units to two fifteen million units, with an external sales volume growing by around 14% year on year to 132,000,000 units as against 116,000,000 units in Q1 FY twenty twenty five. UCBL’s transformation into a multi chemistry platform reflects a clear intent to deliver science driven, scalable and sustainable solutions across high impact sectors, With offerings that span traditional performance materials and emerging specialty chemicals, the company has created a portfolio that is both diversified and future ready. This diversity enables PCBL to address varied customer needs across mobility, industrial processing, infrastructure, water treatment, and energy storage while reducing concentration risk and enhancing profitability. With this, I conclude and open the floor for your question. Thank you so much.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on the touch tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and 2. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question.

Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Shailesh Raja from B and K Securities. Please go ahead.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, my first question is in the rubber Carbon Black segment. Our next pricing cycle negotiations are scheduled to begin in the month of August. Will be raised by set to take effect from October months.

Considering the uncertainty around The U. S. Potential tariff and the elevated inventory levels and the customer demand, there is likely to be a pricing pressure. So how do you see this scenario playing out in the near term?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: See, at this point of time, you’re right. There is some strong headwind, and also there is a lot of uncertainty in the market. As such, the economies are not very strong. On top of that, the uncertainty got created because of The US, mister Trump’s initiatives, what is going on at this point of time. So headwind is definitely very strong.

But at the same time and we know that this might have some impact on the pricing. But at the same time, you need to understand there are markets where supply is less than demand, and U. S, Europe are examples for that. So there will still be opportunities in this market. There will be imports coming into this region for sure from Asia.

So we’ll be looking at that opportunity. As far as specific to the pricing, of course, it will depend on when you finally get into a discussion and negotiation and what is the situation economic situation at that point of time. And at the same time, by that time, hopefully, there’ll be more clarity on the tariff side. All those clarities are there and we have got another two, three months time before we get into a final negotiation with these all big tire companies across the globe, which will be effective January 1. So that will continue.

But the other thing is, you know, as an organization, are also to to kind of take care of the situation in terms of performance. We are taking lot of initiatives internally, which are in our own hand in terms of improvement and efficiency across all functions, trying and improving our working capital management so that overall the organization’s performance remains strong financially. So this is our strategy and at the same time, we continue to grow and be ready for future because we are quite confident and optimist optimistic about this that eventually the market will turn positive going forward. Maybe it will take some time, but we are quite quite positive and optimistic about it.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: For the whole year, can we maintain this $17.18 rupees per kg EBITDA?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: I guess you are not audible.

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Sorry. You’re saying something you’re not able to hear you, please.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Yeah. You can hear me?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yes. Now we can hear you.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, sir. Sir, for the whole year, can we see this EBITDA per kg to be maintained at $17.18 rupees per kg?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: As I said, you know, I don’t want to give you any guidance for this, but as I said that there’s a lot of focus internally in the organization for improvement in efficiency, and I’m quite hopeful that will bring lot of value on the table. Can’t give you a number or a guidance, but, yes, we are positive. Why should only talk about maintain? Maybe at some point of time, we’ll talk about improvement from here on. You want to add?

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Okay. Sir. So my second question on the export spend. So our volumes to Europe and U. S.

That has grown significantly in the last three years from 9,000 tonnes to 85,000 tonnes. So this increasing consolidation

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: in the

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: global economic industry, how do you see our mix going up in next one or two years, given the current exports contributing to around 41% of the total volumes?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Right. Yes.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: So how do you see that mix going up? And within U. S. And Europe, today it is around 35% of overall exports. So how do you see that mix to go up in the next two, three years?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yeah. Again, I’ll not put a number how much it will go up by, but I can generally tell you about our strategy. So as I said, that we’ll be continuously growing in all segments, value added as well as regular rubber black. Right? Now in regular rubber black, as you already know that in India, the supply demand situation is in favor of in favor of the customer in favor of the customer because supply is almost 1,800,000 tons, whereas demand is just about 1.1 or 1.2.

So India should be looked at as a manufacturing hub for the globe. And we are already a very strong player in India. We are the leader. So we’ll continue with our leadership, but at the same time, the further major growth will come in the international market, but there is a lot of headroom for us. The market share of PCBL there is not as high as what we have in domestic market.

So naturally, there is a lot of headroom over there. We’re looking at the international market as a growth opportunity for us. Entire Asia, European Union as a whole and of course USA subject to the tariff situation doesn’t go out of control completely. Because the logistics cost is obviously little higher for USA. And on top of that, if tariff goes hayward, then of course, there’s a concern.

But then the at the same time, the tariff, if it is applicable in India, I’m sure the tariff rates will be even higher for some of the other countries. So maybe next, it will be in a beneficial position. So as we see the international market growth will be very sharp going forward. And, you know, the new capacities which are coming up, downfield in Tamil Nadu and eventually after that, in Andhra Pradesh, a major share will definitely go to the international market. But at no point of time, we’ll be ignoring or neglecting domestic market.

We are a leader and we’ll continue to be the leader.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Okay. Okay. So sir, you said 1,800,000 tons supply in the India market. Of that, how much it is coming from China and Russia imports?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: That’s not much. India in totality imports about 9,000, 10,000 tonnes a month. So India net net is an exporter. Last

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: question, account from last year in 1Q, it was muted EBITDA. But how do you see the performance to pan out in the next three quarters in terms of volume, in a certain margin? Also, this business is diluting the overall ROCE. So, what kind of ROCE you are targeting internally over the next two, three years? What are the steps that we are taking in terms of customer acquisition and raw material sourcing and improving the conversion costs?

Also the capital allocation policy in the platform, can you please discuss?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Last few quarters, a lot of work has been done towards market building, creating higher bandwidth in in our sales and marketing team, expanding the the product portfolio. And these are all gradually you know, they have started yielding results. Maybe this will be more visible in subsequent three, four quarters. We expect this year to be significantly better than last year. And, of course, this business has significant potential to grow from here.

Now in terms of ROCE, see, the internal expectation is all always that we whatever investment we make, whether organic capacities or capacity build up or inorganic, you know, these acquisitions, etcetera, that we have at least 18% kind of minimum return on invested capital, but it takes time to, you know, reach to those numbers. In three, four years’ time, this business, as they become you know, it becomes bigger in terms of top line, will start getting better and better returns on capital. Hopefully, in three, four years’ time, we should be there.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: How much CapEx we have, sir, in this business?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: How much? CapEx. In totality, during the quarter, we have done about INR 112 crores of CapEx.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Only in the aqua farm industry, sir?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: SRINIVASAN Equa farm is not much. Equa farm, it was ongoing. So a good part of CapEx has already been incurred in last year. This year, in the first quarter, it was about INR 15 crores, 16 crores.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: The next question is from the line of Sanjay Sjem from ICICI Securities Limited.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Thanks for taking my questions. A few of them. First, on the Orene plant closure. Any sense is that the plant were old and not efficient? Or you see that Europe and North America is becoming incrementally less viable for them to produce at those cost level and become competitive versus India and China.

What’s playing out in market of Europe and North America?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yeah. You were right. Absolutely, Sanjay. That is precisely what is the reality. I think the cost structure is such for them in US and Europe, and these plants are very old plants.

You know? And what we understand that our intelligence says that they’re trying to see if it goes down the the rubber black lines, you know, I mean, so called not the high value added lines they are trying to stop and put that money, whatever they say from there, more on the specialty lines. That is their target. And indications are there out of these five what they’re talking about, possibly two to three will be in USA, and a couple will be there in Europe. That is the indication.

And then this clearly indication that, you know, competition wise or competitiveness wise, India and China are definitely ahead of them today. From those regions, it is difficult for them to compete, and that is what is reflecting. And this is honestly an opportunity for organizations like PCBL for growth. You know, definitely, there’s an opportunity for us.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: And do you expect more such closure to come? Is it fair to assume that in net net every year, there will be less of addition and more of closure?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: So net closure will Addition, yeah, addition for sure will not be there. No. No. Addition for sure, it is kind of rolled out for the regular black for sure. Specialty, something may happen.

Specialty, possibly, what will happen, they’ll convert all of these lines to specialty. They may not add anything new, but they’ll be converting some of the conventional lines to specialty, but that also requires lot of CapEx. So we have all of those companies, but you’ll definitely be not seeing any addition. So therefore, this gap between demand and supply will only grow in future, which will be in our advantage for Asia.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Very clear. Very clear. Thanks. Thanks. Second, the specialty, now including acetylene and the 1,000 metric ton in the superconductive grade, is it fair to assume that the growth will accelerate with all these products coming up next year in Carbon Black side and eventually that should lead to a much better EBITDA per kg.

Right? You

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: are right. Absolutely. You know, I’ll tell you as an organization, our strategy is on one side looking at continuous growth on the conventional things, conventional items where we supply, say, largely to tire companies and some of the nontire rubber companies. So that continues to grow through expansions in Tamil Nadu, in in in AP Greenfield, etcetera, etcetera. But at the same time, to keep an eye on the profitability improvement, we have taken all these initiatives like, said, in black, superconductive, then nanophase, the battery thing.

So both will continue in parallel. So we are we are going to grow at the same time profitability also will improve. And I think that Raj can add from the point of view of finance. What is his thinking on that?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: No. These are all some time away. The the real reflection of all these new technologies on our bottom line would be more visible from FY ’28.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Yes. So you said

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: the plan should be all available by end FY twenty six or early FY twenty ’7. Right? So we will have some benefit showing up in ’27. Right?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: We will have some benefit, but the approval process, etcetera, will also take some time, Sanjay. So the real reflection I’m not talking about the marginal reflection, but the real reflection would come with a time lag.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Got it. Got it. Raj, on the same line, what is now the difference between so so that carbon black oil used to trade at a premium in China. Has the situation changed with slowdown?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yeah. The the the gap between the feedstock that we use and that of our Chinese counterparts use, that has come down a bit. Currently, is about $130.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Okay. Okay. And any reason why China dumping has come down, sir? You mentioned in your opening remark that the dumping intensity in India has come down. Is that the freight cost not available or matching and then or the grade is not right for India?

Is there any particular reason why there is sudden drop in the intensity by Chinese Russian? Sorry.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Is this you’re talking about Russian. Right? Not not Russian.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Russian. Not Chinese. Russian. Russian

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: import intensity has not changed much. It all started at, you know, couple of quarters back, and Russia continues to sell in India, but the quantities are not very significant. They are doing about 2,000 tons a month out of roughly nine nine nine and a half thousand tons, which is coming in India. And mostly, this is being imported by small time traders. So none of the tire companies is buying directly from Russia because of the quality concerns and also because of the sanctions on Russian material.

So it is mostly on spot market where this is being traded.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: So where are Russians selling right now, the quantities?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: China. Mostly China. Okay. Okay.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: And then last question on the AguaFarm. I think since we took over, the EBITDA has been consistent at INR50 crore. When should we see this trajectory changing? We were expecting INR300 crore plus kind of an EBITDA this year. Will q two show that trajectory changing for us in that profile?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: See, we we are still maintaining that guidance of 300 CR for the current year. And first quarter was also marked by all this US first announcing tariffs and then withdrawing it. And the level of import in US significantly increased during the quarter because of, you know, the further announcement and then withdrawal of that. So this quarter, again, is not a normal quarter from performance point of view. Second quarter onwards, you will start seeing the numbers.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Got it. Got it. Thanks, Thanks, Raj, for answering all those questions so patiently, and best of luck for the coming quarters.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Thank you, Sanjeev. Thank you.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aditha Khitan from SMIFS Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: Sir, my first question is on to

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: the power business. Sir, since last quarter, so sequentially, we have seen power business EBIT contribution has gone up. So some, sir, 25 crore incremental EBIT has been added in Power business alone, whereas Aquaform and Carbon Black seems to be flattish only. Sir, what has changed since last quarter? Because I was checking the volumes, they have not gone up much like on quarter on quarter basis.

So what explains this 25 crore jump?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: You’re talking about power tech power segment performance. Right?

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: No. So there is increase in both volume as well as realization. Our power volumes have been has gone up to 13 crore from roughly 10 crore in the previous quarter, and realization also has improved by roughly 50 paisa per unit. So that explains the increase in the bottom line. Okay.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. And, sir, suppose, like, if we so this power business contribution has gone up, but other businesses, it could remain muted only, sir. For the last few quarters, we have seen

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yeah. Better So Aquafarm business and also the Carbon Black business, the performance was kind of flattish during the quarter.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Got it. Sir, what explains this dip in the spreads of Agperform? Because I believe we had mentioned earlier that as the volumes increase, so operating leverage, so that benefits the EBITDA. But the realization is spreads of Agperform has declined. Is this because of higher imports from China?

Are we facing today or any other reason?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: It is not imports from China. It is prime I mean, the reason for profitability to be not reflecting in the current quarter, one reason is the higher freight cost that they had to incur because of all this geopolitical disruption.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. But the freight cost, like, it could have gone up by almost around so 40% in a quarter’s time frame?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: I mean, the impact of rate cost is around 6 crores during the quarter.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. So this is add add additional 6 crores like we have incurred?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yeah. Yeah. You know,

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: I think, you know, generally, you should I’ll I’ll explain something to you. While you’re talking about numbers. We can definitely look at talk about specific numbers, but I think you need to understand the overall perspective of business. Now last quarter and this quarter, last two quarters, which means q four and q one, possibly are the two most difficult quarters and most probably it will continue for a little more time, some more time. The the whole economy has gone upside down across the whole world.

None of the big economies are doing well today. You look at US, you look at Europe, you look at Asia as a whole and within that India and China, none of them doing too well. And on top of that, these policy changes, which were announced by mister Trump created further confusion and and and and uncertainty in the whole system. So today, if if some companies are at least able to hold on to their performance of previous quarter or previous year previous year, then I think it is a reasonably good performance, reasonably good achievement, I’ll put it that way. You need to see the overall perspective and then kind of analyze the whole situation.

So that is my suggestion to you to kindly look at it that way. Within that, of course, we can talk about specific numbers to analyze and understand more. That is fine.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Got it, sir. Thank you, sir, for that explanation. At Aqua Farm, so we have commissioned 11,500 tons in this quarter. So the remaining capacity would be completed by FY twenty six range.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: This should come up in next two, three months’ time.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. So the remaining capacity will come? Okay. Yes. Okay.

Sir, any idea like on to for the next two to three years, how much capacity in Carbon Black would be added? And in which country and how much expected closure could be there? That’s rough. There

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: is very little coverage on industry, but the historical trend has been every year about three, four hundred thousand tons of new capacity gets added.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Thank you, sir.

Thanks.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Thank you. We’ll take our next question from the line of Madhu Marda from FIL. Please go ahead. Sir, I just wanted

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: to understand if I look at the Carbon Black margins for us, we had a very strong improvement just after COVID, had improved until last year. So could you give some color in terms of the softness that you’ve seen this quarter? If you could break it down in terms of maybe domestic versus export market or how we should best understand the impact of margins this quarter? I understand the global macros are quite weak, but just some more color for our understanding would be great.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Arthur, there has not been, you know, much difference in terms of margins in different markets. I mean, international market, domestic market, more or less margins have been in parity. It is the challenge that we are facing primarily is in the spot market trades, not the contractual trades, where because of little over supply and plus all these, you know, global macroeconomic conditions, you know, weighing down on businesses, that is impacting margins.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: Sir, could you remind me, like, what is our spot volume mix versus contracted volume mix for for PCBL today?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: We are doing about 60% to tire companies and roughly around 10% to on the on the specialty side. So balance 30% kind of remains in, you know, spot market. Okay. Got

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: it. Got it. Understood. Understood. And the competition is there, like, in the spot market is from the Russian producers or sort of who are the players who are kind of creating the pressure, or is it just some demand softness which is leading to temporary margin pressure here?

What’s happening here?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: In recent past, capacity addition has been at a really higher pace as compared to the demand growth in industry. And that certainly is one of the reasons. Of course, I mean, good part of this new capacities are in Asia, primarily India, so as to say. And then, of course, Russia, because of sanctions, they are not being able to sell in Europe. So they are also dumping it in some of the Asian countries.

And Asia, I mean, in totality is still very big for us. We do about 60% volumes in India. And then another roughly about 24, 25% in rest of Southeast Asia. So all these Russian dumping and and rapid capacity addition has impacted. And, of course, the demand growth has not kept pace with capacity addition.

So that’s, of course, one of one more factor.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: Okay. And the Orion plant, what the capacity which is shut down there? Any ballpark number, like the sort of two, three facilities in US and couple of them in Europe? How much would that be?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: We don’t have exact detail so far. We are trying to get some more details. What’s the difference that it could be somewhere around two and a half, 300, 300,000 tons.

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: We do not know really how much it will be and by when. They’re indicating by end of this year, but it has not happened yet. So we have to wait and watch for a while.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. Okay. Got it.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: Got it. And, sir, just one more question was on the capital allocation. Could you give some sense in terms of CapEx for next couple of years? How much do we plan to spend in the e Carbon Black business and then acetylene black and nano vans? This could be some breakout that we believe.

Thank you.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Acetylene black and nano vans would not require much investment. These are low investment businesses. Carbon Black I mean, between all the businesses that we have, Aquafarm, PCBL, and the NanoVest now, on an average, we would be doing about 600 odd crores every year.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: Okay. And how much of that would go into Carbon Black versus non Carbon Black businesses?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Total commitment for Nanovase will be around 200, 250 odd crores. I’m talking about the residual portion. And Okay. Aquafarm would require about roughly about 100 to 125 crore on an average every year. Rest will be for Carbon Black.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: Aquafarm is how much are 200 crores, Richard?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: About 100 to 125 crore every year.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: 100. So sorry. Okay. Okay. Sure.

Sure. Sure. And the the acetylene black project, sorry, I ask not not fully sure of it, but how much capacity do we plan to add? You’re saying it’s not CapEx intensive. So any outlook in terms of what capacity you want to add and by when?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Initially, we are planning four to 5,000 tons, but we will be creating higher cushion upstream and downstream. And in between, the reactors are kind of small reactors of thousand tons, so we can keep on adding reactors based on our market seeding and all.

Madhu Marda, Analyst, FIL: Okay. Got it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Yeah.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Thank you. The next question is from the line of Krishan Parvani from JN JM Financial. Please go ahead.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Yes. Hi, sir. Thank you for taking my questions. Sorry, I just I joined a bit late. So forgive me if I’m being repetitive.

So did you give Carbon Black offtake guidance for FY ’twenty six and per kg EBITDA guidance, which stood at INR 17.4 a kg ex of other income?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: No. We have not given any guidance, Krishnan. We are all I mean, if you had if you have seen our current quarter’s number, you would see that we are already operating at 96, 97% capacity. I think we will reach almost full capacity. So this year, we’ll maintain this kind of capacity utilization a little higher.

And realization would also depend on movement in crude prices.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Yeah. Okay. So basically, you are at one fifty four kt run rate and, you know, analyzing it, you would be closer to $606,160 odd and then probably some incremental. So $6.36 35 Kt should be a fair assumption?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Maybe a little more. We are also about to commission one small line in Tamil Nadu Mhmm. In next maybe few weeks, two, three weeks. And so that will be available for good part of the year.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Got it. And so realization, I understand it’s crude link, but I was more from the spread perspective, I was asking, like, let’s say, per kg EBITDA, I think you had indicated in the last call that your overall two, three year aspiration is to be at a $20.22 rupees per kg EBITDA. For F twenty six, where do you stand?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: I would not talk about current years, you know, some number, but we are on track to achieve targeted EBITDA per ton. We spoke about some, you know, $4.05 rupees increase from the current level in next Yeah. Four, five years’ time, And that will come because of the product portfolio expansion moving up the value chain. Some part of it will come from operating leverage, and also good part will come from all the work that we are doing towards conversion efficiency improvement. So we are on track to achieve that.

I mean but, of course, I mean, the current geo I mean, the business environment volatility is very high. I mean, every quarter, the the you know, there’s some or other development, which is negative for an industry.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Got it. Coming to EquiFarm, you can see your volume has gone up. However, your EBITDA has not gone anywhere. So what actually happened there?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: We just spoke about that. So first quarter, again, I mean, we were talking about US announcing tariff and then again deferring it by a quarter, which kind of resulted in The US, know, importing lot more during this quarter from China and some other countries, which impacted our, you know, business volume. So this is, again, not a usual quarter for measurement of performance. But the guidance that we gave for that performance for the current year, we are holding on to that.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Yes. That I wanted. I mean, I think you said volumes are impacted, but I’m saying that the volume did go up, but your EBITDA went down. So something had to give, right? I mean or was it costs were high, or was it the realization went down, or you had you were holding some inventory?

Because volume, we can see it’s it’s it’s material improvement. Yeah.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: So so the product mix also changed, and also there was pressure on pricing, which resulted into lower margins also. Additionally, freight costs during the quarter went up because of this trade route disruption.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Yes. That is probably that explains the 204,000 other expense went up to INR231. Yes, that is fine. And I think you mentioned that you are holding on to your guidance of INR300 crores. So just wanted to understand what will drive almost like INR80 crores kind of a quarterly run rate if you were to just take it for the next three quarters.

What will change to give you a 30 crore uptake from the coming quarter?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: We are operating at low capacity. Operating leverage is going to give us that improvement in the subsequent quarters. We’re planning to increase capacity utilization. Okay.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: So I thought your capacities are closer towards one thirty kTPA plus you added 11 ktpa. So probably 140, and then you’re already running at 110 ktpa kind of a 100.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Is that clear? So capacity addition, is happening, so we are going to get about 38,000 tons from the new facility out of which only 12,000 tons have been commissioned so far. And Yeah. We had 130,000 tons before this capacity addition. So in totality, we will have about close to a 170,000 tons.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Yeah. But isn’t that the case like in the initial quarters or initial couple of months, the OpEx is higher till your plant stabilizes? So are you still confident of operating leverage playing out just from this quarter and then the next quarter or operating leverage play out could happen probably two, three quarters down the line?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: The pricing this quarter was also not the usual pricing.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Yeah. Right? And then the same

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: we can’t can’t extrapolate current quarter for the full year’s profitability. Mhmm. We are already seeing some improvement in the current quarter. And Okay. Hopefully, every quarter, you will see improvement going forward.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Got it. And just the last bit, if you if you may allow me. Mhmm. So what what led to the increase in the interest expenses this quarter?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Interest expenses going down. It is one capitalization which happened in the last quarter of last year. So for one of our unit, PCBL, Tamil Nadu, where we are, you know, putting out this brownfield expansion. There were some interest expense, which was did I mean, for the CapEx that we are incurring. And, ideally, that should have been capitalized in the first three quarters, but capitalization for the whole year happened in the fourth quarter.

And consequently, fourth quarter interest cost went down to that extent. And on that base, current quarter interest cost is looking higher. But Mhmm. Actually, in terms of overall cash outflow for interest payments, it has gone down in this quarter. And every quarter from here on, you will see further reduction.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Okay. And and on this continuation, what was your gross and net debt at end June thirty five?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Is some If

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: you have that number in

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: the Yeah. We we don’t publish balance sheet in first quarter, but there is some reduction.

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: Yeah. Yeah. I was just saying this is the ballpark number if you have handy, but in case you don’t, Yeah. Okay.

No problem. Thank you so much for patiently answering my question.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Wish you all the best, sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

Vishakar, Conference Operator: you. Before we take the next The next question is from the line of Yash Sinha from MIPL Family Office. Please go ahead.

Yash Sinha, Analyst, MIPL Family Office: Hi. Am I audible?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yeah.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Yeah. Yes. You are audible.

Yash Sinha, Analyst, MIPL Family Office: I I had a had a bit of a unit economics question around the Carbon Black business. So I just wanted to understand the difference in realizations between your specialty carbon black, performance carbon black, your normal double black.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Would depend on grade to grade, but

Vishakar, Conference Operator: it’s being recorded.

Yash Sinha, Analyst, MIPL Family Office: Sorry. I think I’m not I can use

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Yeah. I’m saying it would depend on grade to grade. I mean, we have a portfolio of some 100 odd grades between these three portfolios. At the portfolio level, we are getting about roughly 25% higher realization in specialty, 25 to 30%, and about roughly 17% kind of higher realization in the performance segment.

Yash Sinha, Analyst, MIPL Family Office: Got it. Got it. My second question was around the Orion plant closure. Since they’ve made this announcement, have

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: you noticed any of your yeah.

Yash Sinha, Analyst, MIPL Family Office: Hi. Can you am I audible? Hello? Yeah. Hi.

Am I audible?

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Yes. You are audible, sir. Hello?

Yash Sinha, Analyst, MIPL Family Office: Yeah. I was asking if after this Orion plant closure announcement, any of the larger export clients have intimated to you that they would be providing slightly larger orders going forward?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: It is little early for that. Of course, we expect to get some benefit out of it going forward, but it is gonna take time, and these plants are still running. Orion has announced that they will close by the end of this year this year. These plants by end of this year.

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: These lines.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: These lines. So, I mean, there’s still some time before we start getting, you know, concrete benefit out of this.

Yash Sinha, Analyst, MIPL Family Office: Got it. I think that’s it from my end. Congratulations on a

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: good set of numbers and all the best.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Thank you.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: The next question is from the line of Aditha Khetan from SMIFS Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Yes. Thank you, sir, for the follow-up. Sir, the new carbon black greenfield line, like which we have planned, any ideas on when we are planning to start the construction and when it would be fully completed?

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: It takes about roughly eighteen months to get the plant ready once we have all the necessary approvals in place. But the approval process is little lengthy. We expect all the approvals to be in place in the, like, four quarters, next four quarters or so. Yeah. So from now, maybe around three years, roughly, two and a half to three years.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Got it. Got it. Okay. And, sir, this new specialty carbon black line, which we have planned

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Sorry. You’re not audible.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Hello? Hello? Am I audible now, sir?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: So you’re not you’re not

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Hello? Am I audible now?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: It’s slightly better. Can you say something more than you can understand whether you are audible or not?

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Hello? Am I audible now, sir?

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: No. Not yet. It’s breaking.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: I think

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: now it is better. Continue.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. Okay. Sir, my question was on to the specialty carbon black line, which we are planning in the next, so three to four quarters. Sir, our current capacity utilization is around 50%. I think that would be fully operated by in the next one to two years.

So that this capacity addition, any outlook like we are adding on to the same capacity into the similar bridge, and what will be the CapEx?

Vishakar, Conference Operator: I’m sorry to interrupt, sir. Hello?

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Yeah?

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Hello? Yeah. Yes. Speak I’m sorry to interrupt. You can speak.

Sorry.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: Okay. So first of all, there would always be a gap between the rated capacity and the actual achievable capacity based on the product mix. And in specialty, we can reach maximum around 64, 5%. I mean, that’s the maximum that we can achieve. So against 112,000 tons, maybe we can reach about seventy, seventy five thousand tons.

And we are already operating at a run rate of 16,000 tons plus every quarter, which is very close to kind of full capacity utilization or in a year’s time, we are going to achieve that. And therefore, we require more capacity. And, you know, to get this line commissioned will take about four quarters time. The second question, I think you asked about the CapEx for this line. Is that correct?

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: Yes, sir. Okay.

Raj Gupta, Chief Financial Officer, PCBL Chemical Limited: So it will be somewhere around $85.90 odd gross.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. And, sir, the grades are similar, like, which we are manufacturing today. It it is into the similar grade expansion.

Sanjesh Jain, ICICI Securities Representative, ICICI Securities: This will be

Kaushik Roy, Managing Director, PCBL Chemical Limited: Mostly similar. Some new grades, some in the category of ink and coating.

Aditha Khitan, Analyst, SMIFS Institutional Equities: Okay. Got it. Thank you,

Krishan Parvani, Analyst, JN JM Financial: sir. Yes.

Vishakar, Conference Operator: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of ICICI Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.

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