Hyliion at Sidoti Small-Cap Conference: Powering the Future

On Wednesday, 19 March 2025, Hyliion Holdings Corp (NYSE: HYLN) presented at the Sidoti Small-Cap Virtual Conference. The company showcased its innovative modular power plant technology, emphasizing both opportunities and challenges. While Hyliion aims to revolutionize power generation with its Carnot generator, it faces hurdles in technology validation and scaling production.

Key Takeaways

• Hyliion focuses on modular power plant technology using the Carnot generator for cleaner, more reliable on-site power.
• The company projects 2025 revenue between $10 million and $15 million, driven by a US Navy contract.
• Hyliion plans to commercialize its 200-kilowatt product by late 2025, with a significant business ramp-up expected in 2026.
• The company maintains a strong cash position of $220 million to support its growth and development plans.
• Scaling production relies on expanding 3D printing capacity.

Financial Results

• Cash Use in 2024: Hyliion used $41.5 million in cash for its base business and invested $16.5 million in capital expenditures, primarily for additive printers.
• Cash Position: The company ended the year with approximately $220 million in cash and investments.
• Revenue Guidance for 2025: Expected revenue is between $10 million and $15 million, primarily from the Navy contract and initial deployments.
• Commercialization Target: The 200-kilowatt product is set for commercialization by late 2025.
• Production Volume in 2025: Hyliion plans to produce around two dozen units.
• Total Cash Use in 2025: Projected at $60 million, including capital investments, with $10 million in planned financings.
• Gross Margin Target: Aiming for cash-neutral margins for the 200-kilowatt product by late 2026.

Operational Updates

• 200 Kilowatt Unit Deployment: The first units are ready for delivery to deployment customers.
• 2 Megawatt System Development: Work is underway on a two-megawatt system.
• Navy Contract: Revenue recognition has begun, with ongoing research and development.
• Early Adopter Program: Hyliion is collaborating with multiple Fortune 200 companies and the Navy to gather operational feedback.
• Production Scaling: Focused on expanding 3D printing capacity with additional printers on order.
• Supply Chain Management: Ensuring components meet specifications for scaling.
• HMI and Cloud System: The Carnot generator features remote monitoring and control capabilities.

Future Outlook

• Commercialization: The goal is to commercialize the product by late 2025 post the early adopter phase.
• Production Ramp-up: A significant increase in business and deliveries is expected in 2026.
• Gross Margin Improvement: Targeting cash-neutral margins for the 200-kilowatt system by late 2026.
• 2 Megawatt System: Deployment is planned for 2026.
• Market Growth: Anticipating increased demand from AI data centers and EV markets over the next 5-10 years.
• Manufacturing Strategy: In-house manufacturing for key components, with outsourcing for others.
• Technology Roadmap: Plans to enhance the HMI and cloud system through updates.

Q&A Highlights

• Challenges with Early Adopters: Validating new technology and making iterative improvements are key challenges.
• Scaling Production: Relies on 3D printing; capacity will increase with more printers.
• Cost Comparison: Systems are priced between internal combustion engines and fuel cells.
• AI and EV Market Growth: Increased interest from data centers due to grid limitations.
• Heat Generated: Can be used for combined heat and power applications.

For further details, readers are encouraged to refer to the full transcript.

Full transcript - Sidoti Small-Cap Virtual Conference:

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the day one of the Sidoti Small Cap Conference. My name is Ashish Shah, and I’m an analyst here at Sidoti. With me today, I have Helion, a trade under under the ticker HYLN. I’m happy to welcome Thomas Healy, CEO and founder, and John Panzers, CFO of the company.

We have about thirty minutes today, including the q and a. If you have any questions, please submit them at the q and a section at the bottom of your screen. With that, I will let you take over, Thomas. Thank you.

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Thank you very much, and thanks everyone for joining us today. Excited to share a little background on Hylian and and our focus. So for anyone new to the story, we’re a company focused on making modular power plant technology. So this concept of make your own power behind your facility at an EV charging site, at a data center, we’ll get into more of the use cases here, but it’s really a technology that enables distributed power generation. You can see, our base product here on the slide.

That’s that enclosure on the right hand side. And the thought here is this is really going to be your personalized power plant. So you put it outside of facility, run it twenty four seven, and it will sit there, make electricity, with the goal of being lower cost than grid electricity, being cleaner than than most grid electricity, and having low noise, high reliability. So let’s jump into kind of the the market opportunity of what we’re going after. So if you think about the grid today, and I’m sure many of you have heard this specifically in the investment space, we’re going into a time that’s thought to be kind of like a crisis almost of not having enough power available through conventional the conventional grid.

So the question is, like, what’s driving this? Well, just to give you a few examples, if you plug in 10 electric semi trucks into the grid, those 10 trucks are gonna consume more electricity than the Super Bowl during game time. And 10 trucks is nothing. Right? There’s a couple of million trucks here in The US.

And so, that alone is going to be a tremendous draw on the grid. And then probably the one that’s that’s even gonna be much bigger than that is the data center space. So we’re working with numerous of the data center providers. And one of the the larger groups, they shared with us that right now they consume about six gigawatts of electricity, and they’re anticipating that by 02/1930, just five years from now, they’re going to consume upwards of 40 gigawatts of electricity. To put that into comparison, that that amount of growth, right, going from six to 40 gigawatts in a five year period, that amount of growth is the same as I believe it’s 10 times as much power as all of London consumes today.

So this is a massive amount of electricity that’s going to be needed and that’s just for one of the hyperscalers. And then you couple all this with an aging infrastructure. In The US here we are at a time where about 60% of the transmission lines are already at or past their life expectancy. So you couple all this together, and we believe we are going to move to a model where it’s distributed power generation and you make your own power on-site. To share a little bit of background on the company, so I founded the company back in 2015, and we are listed on the the New York Stock Exchange American.

And headquarters is in Austin, Texas, and, our R And D facility, which is where I’m sitting today, is in Cincinnati, Ohio. John Panzer, our CFO, who joins me today, is actually sitting at our our headquarters in Austin. So, let’s now talk about what target markets we’re going after. So I mentioned a couple of these EV charging data centers. The focus there is really, the grid does not have the capacity available or needed in order to scale at the pace and rate that these markets are planning to.

The next bucket, which is very unique to Hylian, is the ability to leverage waste gas. So if you think about emissions coming off of a landfill or flare gas at a oil and gas site, as opposed to just wasting it through flaring, we can actually take that gas that has impurities and run it through the Carnot generator to produce the positive byproduct of electricity, and that’s due to the fuel agnostic characteristics of the Carnot, which I’ll get into in a second. Prime power, this is really powering commercial buildings, warehouses where it’s lower cost you can produce lower cost electricity your site yourself, at the facility. And then the last bucket, which is one we’re extremely excited about is marine applications. On this one, we have been awarded a US military, specifically the Office of Naval Research contract, where we are working on being the future power plant of choice for autonomous unmanned vessels.

Reason for this is if you think about these ships are conventionally powered off of diesel engines, there is no one on board the ships anymore to do the maintenance of the diesel. And so from that standpoint, with the Carnot generator, it offers a, an expected lower maintenance solution than, than what is conventionally being used. Now let’s talk about what is this technology, what is the actual product. So, you saw the full enclosure on the first slide. This is the the core of the system, what’s actually on the inside.

It’s this four shaft linear generator and, the whole premise of this is it’s powered off of heat. So we actually are using heat as our fuel source to produce electricity. Now I’ll talk about how do we drive heat and everything, but, those are, you know, it’s a linear generator uses heat to make power. So the benefits of this are it’s truly fuel agnostic. So we can produce heat by reacting various fuels.

So we can react hydrogen, natural gas, ammonia, propane, diesel. There’s over 20 different fuels that we can use, even JP eight for military applications. And that allows us to have a system that you could start with using one fuel and seamlessly switch to other fuels as you’re in operation, in order to, you know, use whatever is lowest cost or potentially in military applications, you might have a varying supply of what’s available to you. We also achieve ultra low emissions. And so the numbers here are what we’re achieving on natural gas.

But even these levels are surpassing the most strict of California’s emissions regulations. Superior efficiency, so we’ll be able to achieve up to 50% fuel to electric efficiency. And to put this into comparison, this is exceeding average grid electricity efficiency. So in The US here, we’re at a 36% efficient grid. And so what this enables is you can now be more efficient with actually just making your own electricity on-site.

Then there’s low maintenance aspect, which is within those shafts, there’s only one moving part per shaft, and even that part is gliding back and forth on an air bearing. So think of almost like an air hockey table where, you’ve got your puck that’s levitating. We have a shaft that’s levitating and oscillating back and forth, and this allows it to have very low maintenance and no oils, no lubricants. So if you think about us compared to a conventional engine where you need to do oil changes, that’s now eliminated with the Carnot generator. And then lastly is just low noise.

So our our noise levels are more comparable to, like, an air conditioning system that you would find, at a facility as opposed to a conventional generator. So we then take that four shaft system, and we package it inside the enclosure that you saw on the first slide, and then the rest of the enclosure is all the balance of plant like fans, radiators, pumps, that that help the system operate. And then we also have a version that we’re working on, which would be a two megawatt version. So inside of that is actually 10 of those four shaft systems that’ll be stacked together. And, and then that’s able to provide two megawatts of power in about the same footprint as a 20 foot shipping container.

Comparing that to other solutions, this is extremely power dense, in the tune of, like, one half to maybe even one third the size of conventional generators. And then when you compare it to some of the other new technologies that are out there, it can be one fifth to one tenth the size. So, you know, as you think about an EV charging deployment where real estate is important, having a very power dense solution is key. And then that two megawatt solution, we really kicked off the development of that specifically for the data center market. And when you think about data centers, a small data center could be upwards of like 10 megawatts, medium size could be in the 50 megawatts and then larger ones 100 plus megawatts of power.

And so with our two megawatt system and even the 200 kilowatt as well, you just stack those systems together to give you the amount of power that you need. All right, so now let’s shift into talking about how does the system actually operate. So as I mentioned a few slides ago, this is a linear heat generator. So the way it works is in the orange areas, you bring fuel in, you react that fuel through a proprietary process called flameless oxidation that, that then allows us to produce heat. Now heat is then what is actually used to power the system.

So in those red areas on the linear generator is where we actually have a trapped gas. And what we’re doing is we heat up that trapped gas, which causes it to expand. And then that’s what pushes the piston one way, and then you do the opposite reaction on the other side and push it back. And hopefully, this animation’s going to work, but you can see that piston is just gliding back and forth, and all of that is driven by the expansion and compression of gas. And now the animation is going slow to show you how it works, but that’s actually happening at about 20 times a second that shaft is moving back and forth.

Now on the last slide, you may have noticed that we referenced Stirling technology. So a heat engine, like I was mentioning, is a Stirling generator. That’s the premise of what we’re doing. Now we did not invent Stirling. Stirlings have been around for a couple of hundred years, but they’ve always been extremely difficult to manufacture and or many instances almost impossible to manufacture.

So the unlock for Heineon has been, what we’re doing is we are three d printing some of the very key heat exchanger components or the key components of the generator which which is a lot of it and that’s enabling us to really get the performance and benefits that are needed out of the the Stirling engine or as we like to call it the Carnot generator. So you can see one of the parts on the slide there, but I actually brought one here today to share as well. So you can see just how complex some of the geometries are of the part, which that’s what’s allowing us to get the performance out of a very small and compact footprint. So three d printing has really been the unlock to allow us to bring this product to market. And on the right hand side of this slide, you can see the actual machines we’re using to three d print, some of the components.

And then before turning it over to John to to give a little financial update, I just wanted to cover the competitive landscape and the pros and cons of the Carnot generator. So, you could see the the key things that customers are focused on, which is what’s the cost of the electricity, maintenance emissions, the size of it and the upfront capital costs. So maybe let’s start with the downside actually. So the downside of our solution is it is more expensive than a conventional generator. However, it is less expensive than some of the other new energy solutions like fuel cells.

It comes in more in the the similar price as a microturbine. But customers are actually less focused on what’s the upfront cost and more focused on what’s the long term payback ROI of the solution and and is this going to save us money compared to buying from the grid or, deploying other solutions. So that’s where this technology can really shine because due to its low expected maintenance as well as the high efficiency, that allows us to have lower cost electricity, which in return then means that you’re going to have positive economics compared to a conventional engine, or in many areas even compared to the grid itself. So, that’s true due to the next line there, maintenance. And then we talked about emissions already and talked about footprint, where in all these categories, we’re either leading or towards the top end of performance characteristics.

So I’ll now turn the call over to John to share a little bit of an update on where we are from a financial standpoint.

John Panzers, CFO, Helion: Great. Thank you, Thomas, and good morning, everybody. I’m gonna just talk to this one slide and give you some financial highlights that we presented at our recent fourth quarter earnings release and also just highlight some of the guidance that we gave for this year. One thing I wanna, you know, point out just to emphasize that Thomas mentioned, we are on the verge of delivering the first of our 200 kilowatt units to our deployment customers. So we’re we’re and then we’re in the process, as Thomas mentioned, of developing the two megawatt system.

So this is a product that’s just starting to come to market today. Looking back at our financial results for 2024, I I’m highlighting here some of our cash uses. We had we had some unusual items that won’t be carrying over into this year or into the future. We had some costs associated with shutting down our former powertrain business, and also we did a small share repurchase program last year for $14,000,000 I think the main points to highlight here is the base business is, used about 41 and a half million dollars of cash last year, and we invested $16,500,000 in CapEx, mostly related to additive printers that Thomas mentioned earlier. Looking at this year, we’re we’re we’re expecting a small increase in that spend, to about 45,000,000 and then a similar level of capital investments net of some financing that we have planned.

Also, I’ll mention that we, are well capitalized. We finished last year with around $220,000,000 of cash and investments. We have both we have cash short term and long term investments on our balance sheet. So we are well funded, to bring this these products to market and, don’t expect to to need to raise capital to get them in that you know, get get our first products out there. Guidance for this year, we’re expecting, 10 to 15,000,000 of revenue.

Thomas mentioned the Navy contract. We started recognizing revenue for that contract last year. Right now, it’s in research and development state, but we are providing research and development services to to to the Navy, and we expect that we will be providing similar services to other customers in the future or other parts, at least other parts of the military in the future. So we did start to recognize revenue, for that, business last year. Our so and again, we have some initial deployments this year, which we expect will ultimately result in revenue.

We’re expecting to commercialize this product sometime late in 2025 after we’ve got feedback from our early deployment customers and are are able to, incorporate that feedback in any necessary design changes and software updates for the system. And overall, we’ll end up deploying somewhere you know, we’ll end up producing somewhere around two dozen units for the year and and somewhere between 10 and $15,000,000 of revenue. And then we haven’t provided specific guidance for 2026 other than saying we do expect a significant ramp up in business and deliveries in in next year and in future years. Again, total cash use of around 60,000,000 including capital investments, net of about $10,000,000 of planned financings for some of those investments. And then just looking at at margins and cost, so so we’re just starting to produce the 200 kilowatt system.

So as you could expect, our costs for the initial units will be higher than, higher initially. And then we do expect that we should be able to get those production costs down quite rapidly as we start to ramp up production volume. So we’re looking at, you know, cash maybe reaching approximately cash neutral margins late in 2026 for our 200 kilowatt product. So overall, that’s a look at our financial expectations and results for last year. I think we’re ready to turn it over to Q and A.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Thank you so much for the presentation. And I request the audience, if you have any questions, please submit them at the q and a function at the bottom of your screen. With that, I would take the first question. What challenges has Helion faced in bringing Cardno to early adopters?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Yeah. I’d I’d say the the biggest thing has just been this is a new product, a new technology. And so, with any new technology, as you go through testing and validation, as you go through, bringing the system up, there are learnings. Right? You find that some things that you designed are great, other things continue to need more iteration.

Or even as you go ahead and you install the core, those four Chef system into the genset box, there are learnings of how you can do things better and and improve improve it. So, you know, that’s where what we’ve laid out for this year is, through the about the middle of this year, we’ll be rolling out early adopter units with, with customers that, these are are great, organizations that we’re doing with. Multiple Fortune, 200 companies are in that list. The Navy is in that as well. And the goal of this is to get feedback, to get real world operation on these, to see how they’re performing, and then to be able to go back and make any changes that are needed based on that that feedback.

And, and we’ve laid it out systematically where initially some of these units are going to be just staying at our facility, going through customer specific testing. And then from there, we’ll be transitioned to a customer site. Others will go directly to the customer site. And, and so with all that being said, as John mentioned, the goal is that TeesUsUp to be ready for moving it over into a commercial product by late this year.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Right. And what would you say are the plans for scaling Cardano’s production?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Yeah. So the the big kind of area of focus for how do we scale production is three d printing, as I was mentioning before. So, now there’s great aspects of three d printing, which is as you need more capacity, you just add more printers that make more parts, right? It’s it’s very different than if you think about how a conventional engine company makes a product. They only go invest hundreds of millions, if not billions, or billion plus dollars into a manufacturing facility in order to make engine number one, but then at that point, they are ready to to ramp up and scale production.

Ours is different where we buy these three d printing machines and then that adds to our capacity. And so, as we have been in 2024, in 2025 already, and foresee in the years ahead as well, we will keep adding to our production capacity. We already have printers on order through GE, which is our partner and who makes the actual printing machines. And, we have machines that’ll be being delivered throughout 2025, which will help us with continuing to scale up and ramp capacity. But that is really the, the key area of focus for scaling.

However, not to to undermine or or miss that, there are there is still, like, general supply chain. So, working with machine shops and getting components, working with suppliers and getting components in, making sure that, they meet specs and, are ready for for scaling.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Right. And as a follow-up, I have another question from the audience. How many years away is the company from producing thousand carneaus in a one production year, whether it’s through facilities or contractors?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Yeah. We have not added that level of clarity into earnings calls at this point. So it’s not something that we’ve we’ve, publicly shared. But, what I’ll you know, what we have shared is this year, we plan on producing about 20 engines worth of, of systems. And then as we go into, 2026 and beyond, we’ll continue to to scale.

So, at this point, we haven’t set, like, a target or set a number of, you know, thousand units at what time.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Okay. And can you give us a cost comparison? Like, how much like, a pricing comparison rather? Like, how what is the pricing for your systems compared to the other existing technologies?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Absolutely. And I’m actually going to shift back a couple of slides. So, you could see, little bit of color of this on the the bottom of the slide here. So if you look at an internal combustion engine, usually the costs there for prime power system will, you know, natural gas prime power will be about a thousandth to 1,500 per kilowatt. When you compare that to a fuel cell, fuel cells are usually in the 3,000 to 3,500 per kilowatt.

So to put those to kind of the end product, if it was a 200 kilowatt system, internal combustion engine would be around 200,000, dollars 3 hundred thousand versus fuel cells will be upwards of, 600, dollars 7 hundred thousand. We we’re gonna be sitting in between those, those two costs.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Got it. And do you forecast any dramatic increase in the AI data centers and EV market in the next five to ten years? And like, what are your product forecasts?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Yeah. So we we definitely, are seeing a massive increase in interest from that area. I don’t have exact kind of market forecast data to share on this this call here, but, you know, I shared the initial example of one data center provider is, planning over the next five years to go from six gigawatts of power today to 40 gigawatts in just five years. And we’re hearing that across the board from hyperscalers or even new companies that are entering the space are are projecting pretty substantial growth. And I think this market has gotten to a point where they’re kind of realizing in most instances, the grid is not going to have the power available or needed in order to to support these these massive data centers that are being built.

And so it is shifting to a concept of make your own power. One other area that I’ll I’ll add as a a benefit to the Carno is because you think about a data center provider, they’re usually, contracted to have to provide five nines of reliability, which means just the system is is, is going to be there when when the power is needed. And so one of the benefits with the Carnot is because of its fuel agnostic capabilities and the fact that it’s designed to be modular. So the fuel agnostic means that it could run on natural gas prime power, but then it could have diesel storage or propane stored on-site that could be switched over to as a backup fuel, which is gonna help with, improving the the reliability. And then, the other is the fact that it’s modular means that if you needed a 50 megawatt data center, well, maybe you deploy 60 megawatts worth of generation capacity.

And if there are systems that are under maintenance or are being worked on, then you still have, the rest of the the modular systems that are producing power.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Right. And one more question on production is, like, if when you if and when you need to increase capacity, do you plan to increase it in in your facility itself or do you plan to outsource your manufacturing ever in the future?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: At this stage, our focus has been increasing the production capacity ourselves, doing in house manufacturing of the three d printed parts. Now other solutions such as the linear electric motor, we are using a contract manufacturer to scale that up. So while it is Hylian’s design and our IP, we’re actually using another group who is doing the assembly of that generator for us or the linear electric motor portion of it. So, that’s where we’re trying to be strategic where the things that there’s a lot of knowledge base for IP, a lot of knowledge and know how, like three d printing, that’s something we’re doing in house. Others like bending sheet metal or creating an enclosure or assembling a linear electric motor, we’ll use, partners to produce those components.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Okay. And what happens to the heat generated? Can it be captured and used to heat a pool or growing facility? Or is it simply a waste byproduct of the process?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Yeah. Great question. It can be used for it’s called combined heat and power, where we’ll take, some of the heat to make electricity. The other heat in most instances would be expelled through a fan radiator system. However, if you have let’s say we’re powering a a gym that has a pool that needs to be heated or you want hot water, we can actually plumb the, that heat, and deliver it to an end location.

And so you can use that heat to to have a positive byproduct, which the benefit of that is now your efficiency is much, much better.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Right. And can you talk a little bit about the HMI and the cloud system on Carnot?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Absolutely. So if if you look at the front of our generator, which I’m just gonna jump back to a slide here, you can see that there is a display on the front of it. This allows the user to interface with the system. We do have cloud connectivity as well, so that means there’s cellular connection. So not only are we monitoring the system, we as in Hylian monitoring the system and seeing how it’s performing, and sending information up to the cloud, We also have the ability to send new information down to the system.

And then customers have the ability to look at that information as well and can even control the generator remotely. So in the beginning, you know, there’ll be a subsegment of that those features that are available. And then as we go forward, we’ll continue to expand that. And what that’s one of the great things with with software and the ability to do over the air updates. That product and function and, the functionality of that can continue to expand as we go forward.

And, and I I do think that’s a a key differentiator compared to, like, a conventional generator. Usually does not have cloud connectivity to you know, does not allow a user to, remotely control it. Now there are some products on the market that can be coupled into existing generators, but it’s, with with the Carnot, we’re combining it all with the original system.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Right. And just as my last question, and as we end our time, can you just tell us, what are the near term milestones investors should be looking at in 2025?

Thomas Healy, CEO and Founder, Helion: Yeah. Absolutely. John, do you wanna take that one since I’ve been I’ve been answering all the questions?

John Panzers, CFO, Helion: Yeah. No. I’ll take that one. That’s a great one. So, great question.

So if I go back to the milestones we set out for this year, the the big thing for us right now is continue to get deployments of these 200 kilowatt generators out to customers and then, ultimately getting, all of those out and then also getting to the commercialization of the product, which means if we finish the, you know, we finish the validation, the performance of the generator meets customer specifications, and we’re able to start recognizing revenue for sales, and we expect we hope that to be late this year. So it’s really about getting these first units deployed, and and delivered, and then, of course, getting our our revenue that we projected for this year. And then as we get into later in the year, we’ll start to be thinking about goals for 2026. And again, the expectations there would be, you know, ramp up in deliveries, additional revenue. One thing we didn’t mention, we do expect that two megawatt system to be deployed sometime in 2026.

And and, of course, to us later in that year getting to our, you know, looking at gross margins and as we as we grow, getting getting, you know, towards gross you know, start generating positive gross margins. So a lot of the things that I laid out on this financial slide and that we’ve talked about in our earnings are things that we should look at. I think beyond that, clearly, we’ve we’re everybody’s very interested in in the ramp up reduction, and we’ll give some more guidance on that as we as we proceed down this path. So great question.

Ashish Shah, Analyst, Sidoti: Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Dean, for joining. And I would like to thank everybody in the audience for your time today. Thank you.

John Panzers, CFO, Helion: Thank you. Thank you.

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