Cloudflare at KeyBanc Forum: Strategic Expansion and AI Initiatives

On Tuesday, 12 August 2025, Cloudflare (NYSE:NET) took center stage at the KeyBanc Capital Markets Technology Leadership Forum. CEO Matthew Prince highlighted the company’s strategic transition towards enterprise sales and its ambitious foray into AI. While Cloudflare’s competitive positioning against hyperscalers like AWS and Google remains strong, the company is also addressing challenges in content creator compensation.

Key Takeaways

• Cloudflare is evolving from a product-led growth company to one with a sophisticated go-to-market strategy.
• The company is expanding into AI with Workers AI, focusing on inference at the edge capabilities.
• Cloudflare’s enterprise sales, particularly in the APAC region, are driving recent financial success.
• A new business model for compensating content creators is being developed to address AI-driven challenges.
• Cloudflare emphasizes delivering long-term value over short-term revenue.

Financial Results

• Cloudflare has experienced positive financial performance, raising its guidance in recent quarters.
• The Asia-Pacific region has been a significant growth area, with strategies being replicated in EMEA and North America.
• Notably, Cloudflare announced its first $100 million deal, followed by a $130 million five-year deal.
• Workers are contributing positively to Cloudflare’s gross margins.

Operational Updates

• Cloudflare differentiates itself from hyperscalers by focusing on network-centric operations rather than database-centric models.
• Its architecture allows every server to run every service, optimizing resources and reducing capital expenditure.
• The company’s transition to a strong enterprise sales team has reduced competition from hyperscalers.
• Key personnel additions, such as Mark Anderson and CJ Desai, have been instrumental in this transition.

Future Outlook

• Cloudflare is positioning itself to capture a substantial portion of the AI inference market with Workers AI.
• Partnering with OpenAI, the company is optimizing AI models for efficiency, contrasting with hyperscalers’ hardware-focused approach.
• The company anticipates that 50% of AI inference will occur on networks like Cloudflare’s.
• Cloudflare is also working on a new business model to support content creators amidst the rise of AI-driven answer engines.

Q&A Highlights

• CEO Matthew Prince shared his vision beyond business, including community projects in Park City, Utah.
• He emphasized Cloudflare’s mission to build a better Internet and its commitment to long-term impact.
• Prince highlighted the company’s ethos of delivering more value than it captures and its audacious goals.

In conclusion, Cloudflare’s strategic initiatives and focus on AI and enterprise sales position it for continued growth. For further details, refer to the full transcript.

Full transcript - KeyBanc Capital Markets Technology Leadership Forum:

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon, and please welcome to the stage Jackson Ader.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Oh, great. Thank you. Me and me alone. There you go. Yeah.

Thanks everybody. So, we are here on the second, third, fourth day of the conference depending on when you actually got in but it is the last day of our of our KeyBank Technology Leadership Forum. I think it’s gone great. The the change in location, think people are excited about. So, really happy that everybody has joined us.

And we are thrilled to have Matthew Prince, best known as a Park City townie.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: That’s right. I appreciate you changing the location just

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: for me.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Easiest way to get me to come speak at an event is hosted in my hometown.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: When I emailed you, it makes too much sense. It made too much sense. It’s like, you this should be the the KeyBank TLF presented by

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: That’s well, it was it was a there was a deer in the road so instead of it being a five minute drive, was six to get here. Was a

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: moose and a baby moose right out here frolicking in the in the fountains this

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: You don’t know how hard that was to arrange.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: But you’re welcome. Thank you. I missed it, by the way. Oh, well. I know.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Wait. Wait. Wait. There’s an encore later. Great.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. The encore show.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: The miss wranglers are out there.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Matthew is the co founder and CEO of Cloudflare. I don’t think we need a ton of introduction. But why don’t we just start out with some let’s lay the foundation. You you

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: and I will say ahead of time and I’m gonna put pressure on you and Yeah. And freak my IR team out. But you emailed questions ahead of time and some of them were like the deepest cuts on things. I was like how did you know that?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Matthew we know each So first of all I was an associate on your IPO When when I was in a prior life and so knew the company then. Yeah. Right? But then, you know, I mean you you will readily say it’s like I’m a cheap date. You’re on you’re on podcasts, you’re being interviewed, you own a news you’re out there.

Yeah. So it’s, you know, don’t give me too much credit here. It’s like, you know, all it takes is a few hours of

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Chat GPT.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Of listening. Never. Never. Oh my goodness. You don’t know me well enough.

Right? You know, I I’m not on enough podcasts to tell you that I’m anti some of that. But so I appreciate that though. Yeah. So this will be fun.

But we we either way, we still need to lay some foundation because I think even as a covering analyst and having known the company for so long, I still do a terrible job of explaining what it actually is that Cloudflare does. You started the company, why don’t you give it a shot?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: If I’m at a party and someone asks me what I do and I don’t want to talk to them anymore. Yeah. I say that Cloudflare makes the Internet faster and protects it from bad guys. Okay. And they say, Oh, that’s really nice.

And then they walk away. If I do want to talk to them more, I say, What we did at Cloudflare was we looked at what the Internet became. And it was never supposed to be this. The the Internet was the sort of academic side project. There was actually another project coming out of out of DARPA at the same time, which was the highly secure, you know, supposed to be the robust network.

Mhmm. Turns out like many of these things, the toy took off, the robust one died. But now we’re stuck with all the mistakes that we made where if you look at the original papers describing how the Internet worked, there’s often a section on security and it would say security is beyond the scope of this paper. Right? Or, you know, if they it would say, like, how how do we make sure these things are actually going to work together?

People didn’t really consider that from the beginning. And so what we think of as sort of the problem space that we’re working on at Cloudflare is if you could go back and reengineer the Internet to be how it should have been if we had known what it was going to become from the beginning, what would that look like? And that has kind of led us to all of the things that we’ve that we’ve that we’ve delivered at Cloudflare.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Okay. One of the things that you say all And

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: also time this probably chases people away at parties. Right. It’s

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: thought you were gonna say we’re a fireworks company. Right? I mean, you know, that’ll do it. Yes. But you know, you’re you say a lot that every service runs on every server.

Yep. That’s like a big competitive differentiation. It’s kind of, you know, the tagline of the technology. How big is this server? I mean, at this point you’ve got more

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: products It’s than not that every server runs every service at any given time. It’s every server is capable of running any service. And so we are constantly, at some level, a big piece of what we do is a giant scheduler where we’re moving code or traffic or load to wherever there’s capacity across the network and that allows us to then differentiate based on pricing. The reason we can have a free version of our service that doesn’t actually impose that much cost on us is there’s always somewhere on Earth where there’s a computer sitting, one of our servers sitting, not running at its top kind of capacity. And so that that just that’s like the space over the urinals in the bathroom.

It’s it’s an asset that you didn’t think that you could sell, but it turns out that someone once said, well, we can put ads there, and then and it and it became a resource. We’ve got that excess capacity, so we built the ability to move code around or move load around in order to take advantage of that. That’s why the utilization rates of our equipment are so much higher. It’s why we can get so much more out of every dollar of CapEx spend than you can if you’re one of the hyperscalers, which which are fundamentally in a different business. They’re in the business of buying a server and then basically selling it back over time for five times what they originally bought it for.

We we’re in the business of of running code super efficiently across across that. And so in the case of the hyperscalers, optimization is their client’s problem. In the case of us, optimization is our problem. And so that’s that’s that’s what we are doing. And to answer your question, server is a I mean, it’s a pretty beefy these servers are pretty beefy.

We build them in generations. We actually describe on our if you’re really curious, we describe on our blog in in-depth detail, like, why did we select this particular processor versus this processor? Why do we select this memory versus this memory? And we build them with a a number of what are called ODMs, which are, you know, original design manufacturers, the same people that a Dell or a Cisco would use Yeah. To design these.

So so companies like Quanta or Hive, largely out of Taiwan. And they’re they’re building servers very much to our spec. And we we we buy because every server can run every service, we buy them in in essentially bulk once a year and then depot them around and then can deploy them very quickly as we as we need more in in one particular region or So

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: would you not have the capabilities to be able to to kind of be so interchangeable on the products that you can actually meter and sell if you didn’t start with the foundation of trying to build a better internet, which is like a network to begin with. And actually, Phil, because I left my notes over here.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I’ll talk to the empty chair. Just just think of me like who’s the the actor? Was Clint Eastwood. Eastwood. Talk to the empty chair.

It’s sort of I all of a sudden, I don’t really look like Clint Eastwood, but here we are. That’s right. You know, I think that early on, like, there was a fight. I mean, we we were at about eight employees, and there was a fight. We were we were in a we were in an office over a nail salon in Palo Alto, California.

And half of the team thought we should have specialized equipment to, you know, deal with each of the different functions that we had. And and they said that’s how everybody else does it. We should do it that way. Mhmm. And the other half of the team said, if we do it the same way as everyone else does, we won’t ever have a competitive advantage.

And so we we did the harder thing, which was design the software to be able to spread load out and and service everything and be much more flexible and malleable. And and there there there are places that’s that has made our lives harder. But I think over time, it’s given us just a huge advantage because it’s fundamentally different than how, you know, anyone else thinks of a a service like this.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Okay. So it’s funny that you that you characterize see, this is why it’s important to have the notes because I’m jotting down the follow-up. You characterized yourself as fundamentally different than than a hyperscaler. Yeah. And I think you you mentioned just the other day that you know, pricing on the hyperscaler side, it’s like if we go to a metered or usage based pricing, good for Cloudflare, bad for them.

But, you know, some of the bullish Cloudflare investors in the room would say, I think they can be the next hyperscaler. But what like, you know, like, what how do you respond to that? Why why why won’t you be the next hyperscaler? What is different about that than what you do?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: You know, I think I think there’s space for both of us, I think we’ve actually kind of carved out lanes that are different. The way the way that I like to describe this is companies at some level resemble job functions that are kind of classic job functions. And I think it if you look at an AWS or a Google or a Microsoft, the the fundamental job function that they most closely resemble is that of the DBA, the database administrator. And if you look at the KPIs that everybody at those companies look to in terms of success beyond the financial KPIs, It’s how much of a customer’s data do we store ourselves. And so for them, the database is is central.

And even if you look at AWS sort of diagrams, it’s always like the data store that sort of that that whatever that is, you know, s three or whatever is is the center. And that’s the center and everything else kinda hangs off of it. And they’re all about hoarding a customer’s data. If any of you’ve worked with database administrators, they can be a prickly group. They are kind of like the database is central and nothing.

They’re quirky. There’s another quirky job function, also prickly group, which is the network administrator, and that is much closer to what Cloudflare is. So the KPI that we think about and that we all measure towards beyond the financial KPIs is, of our customers, how many of their endpoints are connected to our network? And so that’s what we’re trying to maximize for. And so the Amazons of the world will always build some network services, but they will always be secondary to their storage services.

Because if you think about it, there’s a real tension between a network and a database. The database is all put the data in and don’t let it leave. Right? The network is all get the move move the data around as much as possible. Whereas Cloudflare, we will build storage services, and there are strategic reasons we do that, but they will always be secondary to our network services.

And so I think fundamentally, we are the network, and that is prime primary for us. And as that network, we fundamentally have an advantage and can play well with all of the different hyperscalers because we are able to interconnect them together. And so if you imagine the future, a future that is bad for Cloudflare is a future where people say, We are all in on one hyperscaler. We’re going to be 100% AWS, nothing else. I have yet to find any company at scale.

They might say that. Nobody actually does it. They always have. Yeah. But we bought this company and they were using Google Cloud, so we maintained our Google Cloud instance over here.

As long as the if the more multi cloud the world is, the more the network matters. And the more the network matters, the more it’s it’s powerful for us. And so I think we will compete at the margins Mhmm. With the hyperscalers. But fundamentally, I think what’s unique about us is we are this network, and that is something that you need in addition to any of the hyperscalers you might also use.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Aren’t the hyperscalers kind of moving in that direction though? There was a big fuss about egress fees a few years ago. Yeah. You know, I think at the time you said that you were really impressed with the way that Oracle was handling their their egress. Like, you know, they’re they’re moving away from database, keep it in, you know, charge people a bunch of money from getting it out.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Don’t see any of them moving away from that in in any significant way. Egress fee so egress is the cost of taking data out. No one has actually lowered their egress fees in any meaningful way in the last ten years because it’s their lock in. It’s how they actually keep things in. Part of the reason we built some storage products is it actually was a way for us to neutralize that advantage that the hyperscalers would sometimes try and leverage for us.

But we actually see less competition from the hyperscalers over the last few years rather than more.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Okay. Let’s go more to kind of some current events. You guys put up your recent quarter some upside, raised the guidance. If you can kind of like rank order what you think went right for you and start you know? And then we’ll talk about the durability of those things.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I think that I mean, the the the real journey that we’ve been going through over the last two years is transitioning from a product led growth company Mhmm. Where I mean, when you worked on our IPO, the knock on us was we didn’t know how to do enterprise sales. I’d be like, look at all these enterprise customers. Of course we know how to do enterprise sales. We did not know how to do enterprise sales.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Happenstance

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: that It was that enterprises would use us because we had great products, but then we would sort of be like, great. You bought that product, and we could put your logo on our on our deck. Right. But we never went and actually sold them anything more because we didn’t build relationships with them. And they would come to, like, events with us, and they would say, if you just spent time understanding our procurement team, we would spend 10 times as much with you.

We were like, what’s a procurement team? And

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: so again, we were Visa, Mastercard.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. And so we were were naive at at that. Now I I think that that’s the right path that you take in order to build big, iconic, durable companies because if you start with product, you build great product, and then you, over time, layer in great sales. That’s much better than starting with great sales and always be scrambling where you’re selling essentially vaporware. We’ve had great product forever.

What we hadn’t had is a really sophisticated go to market machine. And so when we brought on Mark Anderson, who is one of the lead will be in the hall of fames for enterprise sales leaders over time. He’s brought in a really great team, we’ve just up leveled that team. I think that’s what we always said we would see the upswing in the 2025. It came a little bit earlier than we thought.

I think the real standouts have been Asia and APAC. And why APAC first? APAC because it was smallest and it was the easiest for us to make just as big a change as we have, but you’re seeing that now ripple through EMEA, you’re seeing that now ripple through North America. And I think that playbook there’s no reason she can’t take that playbook and run it around the rest of the world. And I think that’s what gives us confidence in the back half of year.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Enterprise Sales Hall of Fame. Can’t wait to take my kids to that.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Mark Anderson. It’s pretty exciting. So

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: CJ Desai, also a new addition. I mean, you know, talked about Mark. CJ, I don’t know. Maybe if I I might call it opportunistic, right, you know, to be able to add him to to the company. Like, what has been the biggest change that CJ or impact that CJ has made in addition to marketing?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I think that Michelle, who’s my co founder, and I have largely divided the business up where the go to market side of the business has been Michelle has owned and support and HR and those things, and then I have tended to own product engineering, legal, finance. And we’re not co CEOs because she hates being the center of attention, but that but she we’ve kind of operate that way. And she, over the last two years, I mean, is the unsung hero of Cloudflare, who has really rebuilt that whole org. And I if I look back at the history of Cloudflare, there’s always something broken. Like, there’s always something that’s a mess.

I tend to think of it as like a triangle, each of these things, and the pucks or slides between those things, and after sales is one point in the triangle, the next thing that came was going to be shipping, which was how do you actually get products out the door, and we just needed to mature that organization. I was like, pardon the vernacular, but shit, that’s going to be hard work for me to go upgrade that org. And one day the phone rings, and CJ decides, I want to come work for Cloudflare. And I was like, well, was easy. Yeah.

And Michelle’s like, come on. Seriously? And and so and he’s just been he’s been he’s just been amazing. I think the places that it’s shown up most actually are he is he has taken that sort of of wisdom of being a product engineering leader, but then he is the most sales driven, customer focused product engineering leader I’ve ever met. And he cares enormously and has a Rolodex.

He walked down the streets of New York with CJ, and he’s like, hey, Bob. What else? He knows everyone. And he’s trusted in these places because he’s gone in and presented a roadmap and delivered on that roadmap when he was at Oracle, when he was at ServiceNow. And that was great.

I think the other thing with CJ is CJ’s got a chip on his shoulder because what happened to him at ServiceNow, I tend to think was deeply unfair. And he’s got something to prove. And he’s like, I took a company from a billion dollars to $10,000,000,000. I can do it again. I can do it faster.

And that’s what we’re doing at Cloudflare. And so he’s just been great great to work with. And it made my job super easy.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Do he and Mark work well together? I mean Super well together. Yeah.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I mean, Mark was his biggest internal champion when we were thinking about him. And I remember kind of thinking, god, if president revenue is suggesting who’s going be our product and engineering leader, then obviously we’re not going to hire that person. And then it turned out he was just amazing.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: So this is one of the questions that your team struck from from the record. And I hope that, you know, I don’t offend you here.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: But You’re not gonna offend me.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I think this was like maybe ten, eleven years ago. At the time, Cloudflare was three or four years old and you said you you only had three lines of code left. Yeah. Even at that time. Hundreds of thousands of lines of code, you only had three lines of code left.

You know, Michelle always operationally focused like Six Sigma black belt, right? Lee was kind of the genius architect, right? Technical genius. And so, you know, you gotta think to yourself, now it’s like, alright, we’ve brought Mark, we’ve brought CJ, like, what what is Matthew the CEO? You know, like, what what what is it that that makes you the right CEO for the company for the last ten years, for the next ten years?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I’m PT Barnum, I I think, at some level. I mean, what what am I good at? I’m actually good

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: That’s what I’m asking, and that that was the offensive part.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. I I think I’m good at at packaging up the amazing work that our teams do and then building that into a story that we can tell to customers, that we can tell to investors, that people can see what that vision is. And I think that that’s been something that that that I I am surprised. Like, I I’ve I went to a lot of school. So I I was I was studied English literature and computer science in college.

I went to law school, Then I went to business school. Of those degrees, the one that has turned out to be the most useful as the CEO of a company is the English literature degree. To be able to communicate and write and align a team as quickly as possible is, I think, super important. What we what I try and coach our our managers and leaders is you might be great at engineering, but if you wanna actually be a great manager, you’ve gotta learn to speak and write as clearly as possible. And I think that’s just a big part of our culture.

You look at our blog, look at those things. I think there’s a lot of that that has come from me. I was actually a terrible early stage startup. See, I was always worried about I’d be like, well, if we do that, what legal framework is that going to implicate? Because I, you know, I went to law school and all these things.

That matters right now. The fact that I went I like, my parents for a long time are like, that was kind of a waste of three years when he went to when he went to law school. Today, you know, as as we’re thinking about some of the things we’re doing, and I’m like, that time when I was an antitrust lawyer, that’s gonna be really useful right now because, you know, there’s a lot of the Internet that is behind us, and we might have those challenges as we as we go forward.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. So we’ll get into an into your educational background, again, in its in its relevance to today. But speaking of storytelling, you’ve got multiple acts Yeah. Going on. Right?

Do you mind just kinda telling the story of what we are talking about, act one, act two, act three Sure. And we’ll get into act four.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Bless you. At at some level, the whole story of Cloudflare is we started out with something that was a pretty simple idea, which was how could you put a firewall in the cloud? And the reason we thought that was important was we saw that, you know, software was shifting to the cloud. We saw hardware was shifting to the cloud. We thought eventually all the network services were gonna shift to the cloud as well.

That was the story we told at our IPO, it was really the foundation of what we’re doing. Michelle and I, we were in business school together, we saw this, and being plucky business students, were like, That is a market opportunity, let’s go run after that market opportunity. And and so we were putting the firewall in the cloud. The first problem that we had was in order to make that firewall kind of effective, we needed data. And so the question was, how do you get data?

Mhmm. And, you know, we knew eventually to be a big business, we had to sell to the big banks and things like that. But but they weren’t gonna buy us unless we could actually provide some value to them, so we needed data to flow through the system. So we’re like, well, if we create a sort of free stripped down version Mhmm. And make that make that avail we had no idea how wildly successful that would be.

But as a result of that, all of a sudden, we had just a huge series of problems where people were complaining that our performance wasn’t fast enough. So we had to solve that, and we tried just to get back to performance neutral. We were a little bit better at that. All So of a sudden, we were making the Internet faster. So now we had a new feature we could sell.

We had all these hacker kids that would sign up because they liked the free service, then they would try and attack each other. We didn’t start out as a DDoS mitigation service, but we needed to do it because we couldn’t just fire customers when they got DDoS attacked or when it works, so we had to build that. We didn’t want to build DNS. We went out to Ultra and Dine and said, is there some way we can do this? But we had all these free customers, and they all wanted to charge based on the number of domains.

So then we had to build that. So

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: over How did time you know how to do that stuff? Like, how did you know it’s like, all right, well, now we’re

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Someone else had done it, so I figured we could do it too. Okay. I mean, and we hired smart smart engineers. And and you and again, it it and so we just kinda kept building the different bits. Over time, that developed into a series of products that we call act one.

And that the acts are basically temporal on when we built them, but they all come from the same the same place, which was we had problems to solve. We needed to solve them for ourselves. So the Act One products are all what technically would be called reverse proxy products. They’re how do you protect or accelerate or make available those applications or services that you’re exposing to the rest of the world. So we built all that, and then at some point, we’re like, gosh, we’re becoming a big company.

We have all these employees, they’re doing things, and people try to hack them and infect them and do things. So we need something to be able to protect them. At first, we had a Cisco VPN that we using, but we were increasingly distributed around the rest of the world. And so we were like, we should do a cloud based version of this. So Zscaler was around, so we called them.

And we were like, These guys’ security isn’t very good, and they’re actually not that fast. And so we demoed it, and they didn’t perform very well.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: The Zscaler you’re talking about?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah, totally. So our team was like, We’re not going to use that. We’ll just build it ourselves. So the next thing you know, we’re building freaking a Zscaler competitor, which turns into and we built it for ourselves, and then customers would be like, wow, that’s pretty neat. I mean, I can demo to you on stage how much more effective our version of that is than anyone else.

And people were like, that’s cool. Can we buy that too? And so then that became a whole another class of products, are zero trust, SASE, CASB, DLP, all of those different things, but they were all because we needed that. In 2017, we hit a wall. It was I I remember I was actually here in Park City on on vacation, and my wife went out to the grocery store.

And she came back, and she was like, so strange. I went to pay for the groceries, and, like, all the cash registers were down. And I was like, yeah. It was my fault. And she’s like, no.

No. There are lot of things in the world that are your fault, but you don’t control the cash registers. I was like, actually, NCR is a customer. We had a big outage, it took them all down. And the reason we had an outage, that was not the worst story of that day.

The worst story of that day was getting a call from a very senior executive at FedEx who said, how much longer before you’re back online? And I was like, we’re getting back. I’m so sorry. And I was like, but FedEx isn’t a customer. They’re like, yeah.

But Garmin is, and all of our planes require Garmin to be able to land or take off, and some of them are running low on fuel. So imagine you’re an engineer. The reason that we had had that outage was we pushed a bad piece of code, and we had a pretty brittle system for pushing code, and it didn’t work very well. And scaling it was hard. We had a whole team that managed it, and had all these ideas.

We had all this stuff to build, but it would back up because we got so scared about pushing new code out. So I sat with this guy from a company that we just acquired named Kenton Varda with another guy who was our CTO at the time, John Graham, coming at a little Mexican restaurant across from our office. Kenton, on a salsa stained placemat, sketched out, here’s how a developer platform of the future should look. And so we’re like, okay, here’s a small team, go build it. And he did.

He went around in a corner, built it. 2017, do it, release it to our team first. The idea was you could sandbox things, could isolate it to individual customers, you could roll code out in progressive ways, would auto scale, had all these security guarantees that were in place super, super, super fast. Our team fell in love with it. Same story.

They then show it to our customers. Our customers are like, how do you guys innovate so fast? I’m like, oh, let’s show us your developer platform. They’re like, can we buy that? That turned into Act three.

So that’s what Workers And is customer zero for all of these things always is Cloudflare. We create problems, and then we go and we solve them. And so that’s temporally how these things work. When we are at our best, though, we don’t talk about individual features with customers. And when we talk in in earnings calls about how we’re doing these pool of funds deals, what that really is is a customer saying, I don’t exactly know what I’m gonna use with Cloudflare, but I am confident I’m going to spend at least x million dollars with you.

So let me just put in place a commitment that I’m going to spend that with you. You give me a rate card. As you add new products, just put them on the rate card, and let’s go. We’re seeing more and more people saying, we want the entire platform. That’s really powerful for us.

You can see today, we’ve announced we’ve got this new bundling where we’re merging together act one, act two, act three into these really coherent bundles. The place that’s going to be really powerful for us and where we’ve struggled is with partners. Because we internally understand how all the pieces fit together and we can put that together. Now that we’ve got that understanding, we’ve been able to model it out. Now we can hand that playbook to partners.

And you’re going to watch the partner side of our business just take off, I think, over time.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Okay. So in a pool of funds deal

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Is it incumbent upon the customer or is there somebody internally at Cloudflare that like goes to them and says like, hey, just so you know, you have access to all of these different things. Maybe try this, maybe try this. Or is it like the customer has to be, they have to be curious, they have to be tinkerers, they have to be trial and

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: error? No. We we we now we are getting much more sophisticated at that. So we get a weekly report Yeah. On what customer usage is across their pool of funds deals and and the customers are scored on a kind of green, yellow, red in terms of what we expect them to consume.

We try to get the consumption to we try and design the deals in such a way that they burn through the consumption well before the end of the deal and then re up that. We’re constantly in there educating the customers on what they can do with this. And effectively, that they become it’s like it’s like I mean, again, we didn’t invent this. We’re just borrowing what Microsoft invented and taking that. But we have the breadth of products that we’re one of the few companies that I think has the permission of customers to actually come in and say, you should just buy our platform.

And then over time, it becomes easier for us to say, okay, let’s replace Zscaler and pull you into our Zero Trust offering. Let’s find ways that you can, you know, kick AWS out of some of your functions, pull that into a workers offering. Let’s make sure that you’re protected from denial of service attacks no matter what. And that that whole bundle is extremely valuable, and it’s it’s the biggest thing that is is driving growth at Cloudflare.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Careful now. I mean, as a antitrust former antitrust lawyer, you know how that ended, you know, for Microsoft in the nineties. Right? I mean

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. But, again, I think that you that that’s not I mean, Microsoft with the with the They turned down the 3E5E7 license. I mean, Yeah. They’ve they have I think we’re gonna be there. That that is not the place I worry about with

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: antitrust. Can you give us a rough sense of, like, how much of the Cloudflare business comes from act one, two, three?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I can say that that act two will surpass act one in the next few years. K. And I think act three around the same time will blow past both of them. And it’s it is growing so much faster than I I would have ever expected.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: So Workers and Workers AI, you’ve just recently, I think, sold it was a back to back quarters, the record record total contract value for those products?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Two quarters ago, announced the first $100,000,000 deal in Cloudflare’s history, $130,000,000, five year deal. Deal actually started from an off-site that we did with with developers, senior developers here in Park City in partnership with the US ski team at their facility. We do these all around the world. Someone was a customer. It was a single digit millions customer, but they knew us.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: They came they were on a snowshoeing outing, and they were describing this project that they were working on. They’re like, that’s interesting. Let’s go back and see if we can build a prototype of it. They were way down the line thinking they were gonna do this with AWS. They thought it was going to take them a year and a half to build.

We showed them how they could build a really robust proof of concept over the course of two hours with them and all bunch of other senior developers watching on as we did this, And that deal went from that snowshoe adventure to close in four weeks.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: The $260,000,000.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Got it. And our team was like, how do we do that so fast? And Thomas, our CFO, said, the way you close a $100,000,000 deal that fast is save the company another $100,000,000, and that’s what we did.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Got it.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: And that’s how powerful Workers is, and that was at accretive gross margins for us.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Okay. Workers AI. Yeah. What is the difference between Workers AI and just their your, you know, vanilla workers, I guess?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: It gives you access to a bunch of the primitives and tools that you need in order to do AI systems, and so the simplest way of saying it is we have deployed GPUs now across the majority of Cloudflare’s network. We give you the ability to access those GPUs and do inference like tasks through Workers AI in a way that you couldn’t do if we just had CPUs.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Okay. Is that when you say we just signed some exciting, fast growing AI native company to run their their on our network on Workers AI. Is that inference at the edge? Is that a small language model? Okay.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. That’s and and and it can be you know, it’s increasingly large models. We’re doing the work to support any size model that you can bring to us. And and, again, we have a whole bunch of the open source models that are just sitting there waiting to be used, but we can if you also have your own model, you can bring that with you. And we’re doing the work to also hyper optimize those things.

I they’re they’re actually like, the hyperscalers have zero interest in optimizing how efficiently the models run because that’s not their interest because they are in a different business. They’re selling hardware. They wanna sell more hardware. We have a ton of interest in figuring that out. So I think we actually employ now some of the the leading researchers in figuring out, they’ve got a model.

How can I make that run quickly? So, you know, OpenAI, we’re partnered with them. We got their open model ahead of time. Our team looked at it, and we’re like, we think we can get this to run at least two or three times faster than any of the benchmarks that anyone else has has been able to do. And that then means that we can either capture more margin from these products or pass that savings onto our customers.

And the answer is we do both of those things.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: So as the world flips from giant clusters in West Texas to inference possibly at the edge. Cloudflare will be there with a net to catch that?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. Think so I think that we think that a huge amount of inference is gonna happen actually on your device. So then there’s then we won’t do that. Like, Apple is gonna run a bunch of If you have a driverless car and there’s a red ball bouncing through a yard into the street and there’s a little girl chasing it, like, can’t wait for the network connection, even if it’s to the the edge Mhmm. To go up and then come back.

Like, that has to be done on vehicle. But there will always be models that are too big. There will always be models that will be too resource intensive in one way or another that you can’t run them on device. And in that case, the next best place to run it is in the network, and the only network that allows you to do that today is Cloudflare. And so that’s what we think the opportunity is is that we can be we think half of the inference will happen on on device, but the other half, I think that’s the the opportunity that we’re going after.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Okay. Act four. Yes. Very recent. Yeah.

You’re you’re you’re you know, you’re getting into the fight, which I like. You know, the the mesh point between publishers, Internet publishers and the AI, you know, I don’t know, crawlers. Yep. Right? So why don’t you why don’t you just explain exactly why Cloudflare is is at that mesh point?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Well, so Michelle hates it when I give history lessons. She’s like, no more history lessons, Matthew. And I’m a recovering law professor, so I like history lessons. She’s not here, so you get a history lesson. The Internet has never been free.

For the last twenty five years, the largest patron of the Internet was a little company you may have heard of called Google. And Google invented a engine, a search engine that when you type things into it, it gave you a treasure map, and then you would click on the links in the treasure map, and you would go scour across this this web thing. And then Google built actually all the the technology, all the infrastructure to take that traffic and turn it into revenue. Right? They built the whole ad ecosystem in order to do that.

They also built a lot of the publisher subscription ecosystem in order to do that. And that Google is the major patron that has paid for all of the web. Mhmm. And it exists. All the independent web exists because of Google.

Starting about ten years ago, the user interface of Google began to change. In the past, again, you type it. It was treasure map. Larry and Sergey used to brag about our job is to get people off of google.com as quickly as possible. Ten years ago, they introduced something that kept people on a little bit longer, which is the answer box.

So if you type into Google right now, when did Cloudflare launch? You’ll get a little box at the top that says September 27, ’2 thousand ten, which is right. How did they get that information? Well, they went out across the treasure map themselves. They gathered that up.

They did a bunch of machine learning on it. They distilled to that particular answer, and then they populated it in the box. And the minute that they did that, it became three times harder for a content creator to get traffic from Google than it had been previously. Mhmm. So it changed.

It changed the deal. My analogy is once upon a time, was sort of like the content creators of frogs. Google had his pot of water, said, frog, you like water? Get in the pot. Frog was like, I do like water.

I’m gonna get in the pot. And the frog swam around, and Google, over a period of time, slowly turned up the temperature, but the frog kind of was like, oh, this is a little less comfortable, but I’m still here and, you know, thanks Google.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Mhmm. And There’s nowhere else to go.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Nowhere else to go. It’s the only pot.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Walls are pretty hot.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. And so here we are. That changed dramatically in the last year

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Where Google feeling pressure from perplexity and OpenAI and Anthropic and others made a dramatic change where I would argue they shifted from being a search engine to being what I’d call an answer engine. And the difference between a search engine and answer engine is the search engine gives you a treasure map, and the answer engine gives you the answer. And then there’s no incentive to go click on anything that’s out there. And what that did for everyone across the universe was it made it another three times harder. So nine times harder than it was ten years ago to get actually traffic, and it’s getting worse over time.

And that’s the good news for anyone that is still dependent on the sort of business model of the web over the last twenty five years. The bad news is at OpenAI, it’s 750 times harder. At Anthropic, it’s 37,000 times harder to get traffic. And so as the world shifts from search engines to answer engines, the business model of the web will change, period. Full stop.

And it’s gonna change, I think, into one of three paths with the first being kind of the bleakest, which is anyone who is creating media that is supported by ads or subscriptions is gonna starve to death and die. And there’s a whole bunch of people that think that’s what’s gonna happen, that journalists will cease to exist. It’ll all just be social media posts. There won’t actually be anything like that. I don’t think we’re gonna get there, but there is a real risk that the that if you are selling just pure media content, it goes away because everyone consumes the derivative.

No one consumes the originals. The Black Mirror, slightly less bleak, but still freaking bleak version is we don’t go back to the media that we, you know, might fondly remember of the nineteen eighties. We go back to the media of the fourteen hundreds, the time in the Medicis, right, where it’s not that, you know, there are a it’s it’s there are five families that employ all the journalists and researchers except instead of being families, it’s five AI companies. Can you imagine OpenAI standing up a version of the Associated Press with bureaus around the world covering what was going on and feeding it back into their engine and doing that? It’s not that far a distance from what they were doing with Scale AI.

And if that happens, there will be a conservative one. There will be a liberal one. There will be a Chinese one. Europeans will try to create one and fail, and then they’ll use The US liberal one. There’ll be an Indian one.

The Brazilians will pretend to build one, but it won’t ever actually work. Like but that’s what’s gonna happen if we don’t find some other path. And you can really imagine that knowledge will be created in these individual silos, and you will subscribe to AI companies spending probably thousands of dollars a month to have this assistant that has a personality and is fed by all of the information gathered by this and knowledge will be siloed. I think that’s such a pretty bleak outcome too.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Didn’t you also think that was gonna happen to the Internet though?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I didn’t. I wrote my thesis. I thought I wrote my thesis on how search engines over time would become political, and I it’s a miracle they haven’t. Like and you can see this even with social media now where social media is actually starting to be here’s the liberal one. Here’s the conservative one.

And that that like, the fact that Google has stayed apolitical is a miracle. Right? Because it shouldn’t have there should be I I Robert Thompson, the CEO of News Corp, like, every time I have dinner with him, I’d be like, why don’t you guys launch a search engine? Now I don’t know that that would make the world better, but imagine this could be a great business. Like, Fox News search, big American bald eagle, American flag, like, no foreign crap.

Right? You know, fair and balanced. Right? Mean, they 10% of The US search market overnight. That’s a $70,000,000,000 company.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Don’t Right? Don’t suggest these things. Don’t do that.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: And and and they didn’t for lots of reasons. But I think that that’s a path. What’s the alternative? The alternative is we have to figure out some other market to compensate content creators, and we’re in a unique position to do that because a huge percentage of the web already sits behind us. In addition to that huge percentage of the web, because we’ve been thought leaders, every major publisher in the world is migrating to us.

That won’t turn into big revenue dollars. These are not they they just don’t have that much money, so don’t get excited about that. But what my hope is is over time that we can pay them more than what they were earning from ads. It’s and and it’s numbers aren’t crazy. Right?

So here’s here’s the way to think about it. The entire kind of independent web so take Instagram and YouTube and Facebook and, you know, those things out. Look at just but the New York Times and Wall Street Journal, all that stuff, the ad supported independent web, it’s $10,000,000,000 a year to it. Reddit did a deal with two AI companies, Google and OpenAI. They got a $140,000,000 for that deal.

Reddit is migrating to us. We know how much traffic they get. Cloudflare has a 100,000 times more content behind us than Reddit. So you could just simplistically say a 140,000,000 times a 100,000. That gets you half the GDP of The United States, so that’s not gonna happen.

Mhmm. Right? But could you get to $10,000,000,000 that then flows back to the publishing ecosystem? I think the answer is yes. And the story that I find the most encouraging here is the day before Steve Jobs launches iTunes, 99¢ a song, the entire music industry the market cap of the entire music industry was about $8,000,000,000.

Market cap, not revenue. Right? 99¢ a song wasn’t the business model that won in the end. Over time, it’s it’s Spotify. Spotify is $10, you know, a month, and you pay it in.

It goes into a big pool. It gets distributed out to music industry, folks. And Spotify is not the only people paying the musicians now. There’s still a a record business, although it’s small. There’s YouTube.

There’s Tidal. There’s Apple Music, all these things. But Spotify alone last year sent $10,000,000,000 to people who are creating music. So they sent more to people creating music in revenue than the entire industry was worth before that happened. And so I am encouraged that there’s actually an opportunity for us to go out and do really interesting stuff and compensate people doing really interesting work.

And I’m also encouraged by the following thing. Like, I like the New York Times, but the New York Times equivalent deal with Reddit, they got $20,000,000. Reddit got a 140,000,000 a year. Right? So Reddit got seven times as much even though it’s physically the same amount, the question is why?

And the answer fundamentally is if you’re an AI company, you can do a deal with the New York Times, but the New York Times is effectively the same information as the Feet, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, so there’s no differentiation where Reddit’s unique. Imagine if we could actually set up a set of incentives to compensate creators by creating unique content again. Less me too stuff of, like, you know, we don’t need more Buzzfeeds. That’s not good, but it we do it would be great if we had more Reddits. And so I think that as we think these things through, there’s an opportunity.

I exactly know what it’s gonna look like. Mhmm. But there’s an opportunity to actually reward these creators. And we are in a very unique position to play broker because 80% of the AI companies already use us. We know them very well.

I am on a hugging basis with Sam Altman. Sam doesn’t hug a lot of people, so I feel like that’s that’s a step in the right direction. Like, we’ve we’ve got a chance. We have you know, we can call the senior leaders at Microsoft, at Google, at Apple and and and say, listen. At the end of the day, the business model is gonna change, and one of you is gonna step up and be the leader, and that person is going to be the patron of the future of the web.

And if that happens, it can replace what Google has done before, and I think we can actually have a healthier web going forward.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: How do you make money off it, though?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Well, if we negotiate the deal, just like if I’m an agent, I should get a percentage of that. So I think that if it’s, I don’t know, $10,000,000,000, 30% is a good take from that. I don’t know if that’s what it will be. And technically, by the way, the antitrust problem, that’s illegal almost certainly. Although Spotify did it, although they got sued for antitrust and then had to figure their way through it.

But I think there’s gonna be some way that we can take a percentage of that. But even if we don’t, it’s the right thing to do. Even if somebody else figures out how to do this, if someone doesn’t invent the new business model of the web, the web will die, and it will be some version of either the nihilistic journalist starved to death version or the Black Mirror knowledge is in silos version. And so I think it’s worth us fighting to try and find what that alternative is.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Because that was gonna be my follow-up. Like, the company ethos from pretty early on has been to eschew revenue in order to kinda be on, like, the right side of history. Right? Like, do you know, it’s like do the right thing first. Like when you turned on encryption

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: You know, for free. Was like a

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: was the thing that you had was encryption and we just gave it away.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Yeah. So how do you square that with like this new you know, I know you’re a for profit business. I’m not saying, like, hey. Give it all away. But, like, you know, how how does this strategy fit with the ethos of the company?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: I think that if you wanna like, Michelle and I aren’t gonna be happy at being a $100,000,000,000 company. Right? We’re not gonna like, we wanna be one of the truly iconic technology companies of this century. And the way you do that is by delivering way more value than you capture and just and and being audacious and doing audacious things and looking out at the world and saying, how can we actually dramatically improve it? And every single time we’ve done that Mhmm.

We didn’t know exactly how we were gonna get paid, but we always got paid. And it’s always driven our ability to do more. So I just really believe we should always be delivering much more value than we capture, but we should capture value, and we should make sure that we have margins that support it and that we can do these things. I have no doubt that if we help invent the next business model of the web Right. We’ll find some way to make money off of that.

But but the most important thing is how do we really invent the next business model of the web to support all the publishing industry. We were way under penetrated in publishing. Mhmm. Like, they weren’t we’d call them up, we’d be like, hey. We can make you faster, and and we’ll save you some money and, like, protect you from hackers.

And the CEOs would say, you what? I don’t care. Like, I mean, that you’re so far down the list of priorities. I am now on like, it’s it’s like, every CEO of every major publisher is blowing up my phone being like, you guys are the only ones fighting for us. Will that turn into an opportunity over time?

Absolutely. Exactly what it will look like? I don’t know. But the business model of the web is gonna change. We’re in the center of it.

I think we’re gonna capture some value out of that.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: What’d you wear to the Conde Nast meeting?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Oh my god. That was same week as earnings. I had I the earnings was I like earnings. Earnings is fun. Same.

Most stressful meeting by far was with Anna Wintour. Do

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: you wear that?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: No. And my wife was like and it was a 100 degrees in New York. It was a Wednesday before. It was or Tuesday or Wednesday before. And and it was, like, a 100% humidity, hundred hundred degrees.

And the only suit that I have is, a fall kind of heavy suit. And I’m like I’m like, I’m just gonna wear like a, you know, fancy hoodie and jeans. My wife is like, you are not this is our only chance to get invited to the Met Gala. And I’m like, I don’t wanna go to the Met Gala. And but and so I wore the heavy suit and sweated like crazy, and Anna kinda looked me up and down and just shook her head.

But then said, you are the only person who gives me faith that there is going to be a business for creatives like like the people that work for me. And I think that that’s and and she’s like, and I will call anyone. By the way, they’ll all take my phone call, and I will tell them, you have to get on board. And, again, the people are like, how are you gonna convince Google? How are you gonna convince, you know, OpenAI?

How are you gonna we’re gonna convince them because it’s again, it’s the right thing, and we’re on the right side of history here.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Couple quick ones before we before we hop. You’ve been critical of of founders being too narrow, right, in terms of, you know, minimum viable product and, you know, go after some small nichey thing just to get some cash flow. There are some, you know, companies in here, private companies, whatever possible future entrepreneurs. Why do you think that going after the big hairy stuff is is right for a founder?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: It is as hard to build, you know, I don’t know, app to help, I don’t know, increase your marketing automation systems by 5% as it is to build Cloudflare. And if one works, is it going to matter versus if Cloudflare works, it’s going to be a big The other thing is we didn’t start out with a mission. Like, we were not a mission driven company. Michelle and I were business students. We saw a market opportunity.

We’re like, we can make money doing that, and we can not have to have real jobs, and we can impress our parents. And that’s why we Yeah. That’s why we started. The mission came because all of a sudden, all these things signed up for us, we were like I remember the lunch. We were sitting around when an engineer was like, feel this is the first job I’ve ever worked at where I feel like I’m helping build a better Internet.

And that phrase just kept coming up and up and up. And I remember thinking, we’re not gonna put out a mission. That’s just that’s marketing BS. And but then, you know, I don’t know. There was some employee I was trying to and I was like, you know, we’re Cloudflare, we’re helping build a better Internet.

And the employee’s like, yeah. I’ll come take the job with you even though it pays less and and doesn’t do it as opposed to go to this, you know, other big company. I was like, woah. This stuff’s really powerful. And and today, even though I started very cynical around it, today, if you talk to anyone at Cloudflare that’s working there, the thing that they say the reason they work there is because of that mission.

And I I talked to other other peers who run big companies, but, you know, their mission is, like, I’m gonna help, you know, marketing teams be slightly more efficient. And I’m just like, like, I I don’t understand how you do this job without us. We we had 1,500,000 people apply to work for us last year. We hired a thousand. Right?

We get the pick of the litter out of that that group. And the reason that we get that is because people want to people wanna do things that make a difference in the world. And so when we stand up and say, hey. We’re we’re defending creators, we get a flood of some of the most talented engineers in the world and say thank you, and they wanna work for places that do that. And so I think it becomes a very virtuous cycle.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Alright. Matthew Prince, he said the tab’s on him at No Name Saloon tonight. Not No Name. Yeah. Oh, no?

What’s a better recommendation?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: River Horse. Oh, River Horse is good. Like, in Palomino, the bar that takes River Horse is River Horse is good. It’s good. We actually my we just bought that building.

So, yes, please go there so they can pay their rent. Great. Yeah. So we’re trying to bring wife

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: and for you financially these days?

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Is that what we do? My wife and I are trying to bring better we care about this town a lot. We’re trying to bring better things to it. So my sort of side projects are bring better restaurants to Main Street because it should have better restaurants, and the restaurant food here is sort of mediocre. I build a gondola that starts from Main Street and goes to Alta.

Twenty two minutes, you can do it. I have a call with the Department of the Interior next week, and then I think we’re gonna get it done. And then and then buy Park City from Vail because, honestly, like

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: My buddy told me that on our run last Saturday. I’m not a skier. I have no clue, but he’s like, the since Vail has bought this thing,

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: it’s kind It’s really it’s it’s been said. But if you do that, then I can do a deal with all six resorts, and we can combine all six of them together where one pass lets you ski from Deer Valley to Park City to Brighton to Solitude to Alta to Snowbird. And it’ll be the actually largest collection of skiing anywhere in the in the world, and it would be it would be pretty pretty cool. So those are my sort of side hustles, which that again. Alright.

Jackson Ader, Host, KeyBank: Figure out. Get you to meetings. We gotta get these people to meetings. Thank you very much, man. This is great.

Thank you.

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