Forge Global at Oppenheimer Conference: Strategic Shifts and Future Plans

Published 11/08/2025, 22:28
Forge Global at Oppenheimer Conference: Strategic Shifts and Future Plans

On Monday, 11 August 2025, Forge Global Holdings Inc (NYSE:FRGE) participated in the Oppenheimer 28th Annual Technology, Internet & Communications Conference. CEO Kelly Rodriguez outlined Forge’s strategic pivot from a transaction-focused platform to a foundational infrastructure for the private market. While expressing optimism about market recovery, she noted challenges such as macroeconomic uncertainty. Forge’s focus on data, technology, and regulatory engagement was emphasized, along with plans for international expansion.

Key Takeaways

  • Forge is transitioning to a foundational infrastructure for the private market, with new platform and data partnerships.
  • The company aims to achieve positive adjusted EBITDA by 2026, focusing on efficiency and revenue growth.
  • Strategic data partnerships and international expansion in Asia and the Middle East are key priorities.
  • Forge plans to launch a family of index products for retail and non-accredited investors.
  • The company’s volume is highly dependent on a healthy IPO market.

Financial Results

  • Forge reported a 110% year-over-year increase in trading volume for the first half of the year.
  • Over 50% of Forge’s trading volume now occurs through fund structures.
  • The company is committed to reaching positive adjusted EBITDA by 2026.
  • European operations are expected to achieve breakeven by the end of 2025.

Operational Updates

  • Forge launched its next-generation platform to modernize trading and enhance global scalability.
  • Strategic data partnerships were established with Yahoo Finance, ICE, and Fortune.
  • The acquisition of Acquidity expands Forge’s global advisor business and access to non-accredited investors.
  • An exclusive partnership with Silicon Valley Bank was secured to provide liquidity solutions to SVB clients.

Future Outlook

  • Forge plans to launch rules-based index products targeting retail and non-accredited investors.
  • Data monetization is expected to become a significant revenue driver.
  • The company is exploring further international expansion in 2026.
  • Forge is positioning itself as a technology-driven platform and a recurring revenue data business.

Q&A Highlights

  • Forge’s trading volume is closely linked to the health of the IPO market.
  • The first registered fund, the MegaCon fund, is expected to launch later this year.
  • Tokenization is a focus, with Forge aiming to partner with credible platforms.

For a detailed understanding of Forge Global’s strategic direction and future plans, readers are encouraged to refer to the full transcript.

Full transcript - Oppenheimer 28th Annual Technology, Internet & Communications Conference:

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Okay. Our next session is with Forge Global, and thank you everyone for joining us. My name is Guru Sudhat, and I work with analyst’s own Lau in covering the information services, exchanges, and blockchain space here at Oppenheimer. Forge is a marketplace for private companies. It provides trading, data, custody, and other related services to investors, companies, and shareholders.

Today, we’re pleased to have with us CEO, Kelly Rodriguez. Thanks a lot for joining

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: us, Kelly. Good to be here.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: So the people who are listening on the webcast, plea please feel free to submit your questions online and we’ll do our best to address them. So, Kelly, as a starting point, could you maybe briefly explain to us or just give us an overview of Forge as it stands today? You know, over the past few quarters, the company has evolved quite a bit. Right? The next gen platform is now live.

Forge data is now actively being distributed, and the equity acquisition is also complete. Right? So given all of this change, can you maybe just talk to us about how investors should think about Forge’s updated value proposition today and where it’s headed three to five years

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: from now? Great. Thank you. Thank you. And I think this is a really important time in Forge’s evolution.

The last few quarters have really been the proof points of investments that we’ve made in the last three years. So we’re really shifting from what we’ve been known as a transaction focused platform into more foundational infrastructure for the private market. We just launched the next generation platform, which is primarily a marketplace now that’s modernized the way trading works and can be extensible at a global level. It’s integrated with participants ranging from high net worth individuals, institutions, family offices, and is really truly starting to get global. Part of that was the data part of our business and those strategic partnerships that you talked about with Yahoo, ICE, Fortune, these all represent the different segments that we operate in.

Yahoo Finance, is is is an enormous, digital portal for investors to access pricing on the public side. And now with Forged Data driving Yahoo private, we’re seeing investors come to Forge that really are interested in this next phase of the private market. Our deal with ICE and the New York Stock Exchange is more of an institutional digital distribution thing, and then Fortune is obviously part of of just additional transparency to the marketplace. So the transparency and access of the NextGen platform with data supporting it has been part of our vision from the get go. And now with these types of relationships, you’ll start to see Forge everywhere.

CNBC runs a forge data point every week. And then as you pointed out, the acquisition of Acquidity really takes our global advisor business to the next level. The Acquidity Megacorn Fund, which is in the process now of becoming a registered fund, we think later in October, will really start to open up the opportunity to non accredited investors. So look, over the next three to five years, we think Forge is in a really great position to be the definitive platform for transacting in the private markets. And this is not just shares, but it’s fund structures.

It’s the way the market is trading and will trade for the next three to five years. So very excited about talking more about that.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Yep. Extremely promising stuff. Right? But before we dive into Forge, maybe just broadly, you know, the IPO market, you know, has shown some strong signs of recovery in the first half of this year, you know, several successful IPOs Circle, CoreWeave, and Figma to an extent. And this strength has also been reflected in the private markets.

Right? We saw Forge volume increase 110 in the first half year over year. But despite the strength, the company remains cautiously optimistic. Right? And then and then and expecting a full scale recovery for the second half of this year.

Can you maybe talk to us about the drivers here? What you’re seeing? If it’s macro, what are you seeing beyond macro factors contributing to this cautious optimism? And and and in your view, what would it take for the markets to fully open up again?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. So we we are cautiously optimistic. I’d say part of the answer to the question is there are some incredibly high performing companies now that are capturing not only the interest of the public markets, but of the private markets. So in the AI space, as an example, we’re seeing a lot of interest and volume there. But obviously, the market to fully open up, it takes more than just one one sector.

We have said in previous public statements that our volume is most highly correlated to an help to a healthy IPO market. And so we’re seeing that happen. At the same time, though, the companies that are going public are really kind of the next generation of players, and that means they are balancing growth with fiscal responsibility and profitability. The fintech sector is another significantly outperforming year to date sector that’s behind AI. It’s a little quieter.

And so we’re still looking at the broader market to open in the second half, but I think the macro environment is still a little bit uncertain. And so we’re hoping that this will continue to improve, but we think other sectors like climate tech, healthcare AI, and vertical SaaS, these are now starting to show data signals in the private market that you could see some of them coming to market later on this year. So again, cautiously optimistic, but it’s really that super high performing AI space that’s that’s captivating the world right now in the private markets.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Yep. Yep. That makes a lot of sense. Right? And and and to capture all of this interest or to capture all of this activity, you know, Forge expects to launch its first registered fund later this year.

Right? I believe you mentioned October through the conversion of the MegaCon fund. Right? But we also expect this to be first of many in the index product family. Right?

Especially focused on retail and non accredited investors. So can you maybe just talk to us about the potential here you’re seeing? The long term potential for long for these index products? And and and and what other kinds of products is is the company considering, and what what what can we expect in the near future?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Well, every major asset manager in the world of note is talking about a higher level of allocation in alts and privates into portfolios. We saw this coming, and we already knew that the market, the private market trades through fund structures. In our last couple of quarters, we’ve reported that 50% or more of our volume is now trading through fund structures. The Megacorn Fund was meant to take that to the next level by creating a data driven index that was broadly accessible. And now with some of the news you’re hearing coming out of Washington around four zero one k access to privates, we think the timing for this couldn’t be better.

Right now, though, as we’ve reported previously, the Megcorn Fund is roughly the top 60 names. And while that’s really interesting because it does have a diversified effect and because it will be available to non accredited investors, we think that it’ll be differentiated. But what we see going forward is a family of rules based products. And really, it’s meant to use data, use our data and our data position, to open up other types of exposure that’s diversified. And that could be based on stage, thematic indices, or sector specific.

Think AI sector, climate tech, or fintech, as specifically the fund structures that you could find later on. But we really intend to lead here. And, of course, we’ll also have accredited only funds as those are available a little bit with a little bit less regulatory oversight responsibility. So our our future will be a combination of listed funds, 40 act funds, and accredited and maybe some QP funds.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Understood. Understood. But currently, what does the market looks like for private market index funds? Right? Who are you competing with, and how do you view for disposition in this market at the moment?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Well, what’s out there right now is is pretty slim. There’s nothing out there that is a that we know of that is an index driven diversified fund. You’ve got private shares fund that’s out there that’s an active fund. You’ve got a number of of of of active funds that aren’t really valued on the underlying. I’d say the incumbents like ARC that have had great success in opening up the market to a combination of publics and privates is what I would consider an incumbent.

And then you’ve got some of the traditional PE firms that are traded publicly that offer exposure. I think Apollo KKR and Blackstone are now signaling, you know, some shifts in how they want to bring privates into the public market. We’re also seeing a lot of activity at BlackRock, but these could also be partners of Forge. So we’re looking at opportunities to distribute some through some of these. But I think in terms of rules based products besides fixed income and private, you know, private debt, this is a pretty unique product.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Got it. Got it. Got it. And you also touched on the distribution strategy, right, which is which is which is is what the conversation has revolved around for a while. So you hinted at this, but what kind of potential partnerships, what kind of strategy are you thinking over there just to distribute these new products?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Well, anybody that’s that’s really actively engaging with RIAs and wealth managers. Now some of these RIAs and wealth managers will find the product directly through Forge, But this is the core business of some of the biggest asset managers around, and we’re in conversations with them now because we think it’s probably some combination of people buying this through the Forge platform, or we’ve built up quite an extensive number of accredited investors. But we have we we virtually have no business in the non accredited side. So any RIAs or wealth manager distribution partners that can help us access that for long term potential success is is is enormous. So we’re in those conversations now, and we’ll certainly be reporting back to everybody here in the public when we get further down the road.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Got it. And maybe just shifting to forged data and the next gen platform. You know, we we spoke about this a little bit on top. Forged data is actively being pushed through several different distribution partnerships, right, all aimed at visibility. Can you maybe comment on the early traction that forged data has been bringing?

You know, and when can we expect revenue from data to become a little more material? And if there is one, can you maybe just remind us of your long term target revenue contribution from this from from from Forge data?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. You you should think of data as one of the key strategic drivers of not only Forge’s success, but of the evolution of the private market. And I’d say the really the the phases of this, we break into three phases. The first one is making sure that our proprietary data is adopted in places that you trust. And so the phase one is adoption by the trusted.

And so when you think about the differences between Yahoo, Fortune, ICE, and CNBC. These are all sources of trust with different constituents that will help condition the market around transparency and trust of a price for an asset class that has historically lacked transparency. The second strategy, which is where we are now, is data as an enabler of trading volume. And this has already begun. So as people become more trusted and they know, hey, you know what?

Yahoo Finance says that a share of SpaceX is at this price, then their ability to click through and actually put an offer in or see it on CNBC or see it in the fortune lists, that becomes the translation of adoption into increased volume and access. And then ICE, which I’ll bring up as sort of the third phase, is where we’re actually in a revenue sharing relationship where our product is being sold. And I’d say as we move from the second into the second mature data as an enabler and the monetization model for direct selling by partners, that’s when you’ll start to see the materiality of the revenue from data really present itself. And our hope is we start to show you when it starts to become material and even in advance of that, certain KPIs that indicate how many people are seeing our data and using it to get an inquiry into Forge. So I’d say, you know, reporting on revenue is a little bit further down the road.

But before that, we’ll start delivering certain KPIs around data adoption and how it’s driving volume.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Yeah. I I I assume it’s too early to give us any kind of timeline, any kind of potential timeline on this matter? A couple years. Couple years. Okay.

Yeah. That’s that’s good. Yeah. And, you know, maybe just shifting once again a little more. Towards the end of last month, we saw the announcement of the Silicon Valley Bank partnership.

Right? The deal that’s focused on enabling access to secondary liquidity solutions that the company provides. Right? Can you maybe just talk to us about this partnership a little more? And then what Forge’s role is and then what Silicon Valley’s bank what the Silicon Valley Bank’s role is?

And I understand that this is a referral partnership. So is this by any means exclusive, and was this also a competitive win against the likes of Nasdaq private markets and EquityZen?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. So, this is an interesting one because Silicon Valley Bank is a trusted partner, lender, and service provider to many of the companies that are listed on Forge. And they knew of us but had a previous relationship with one of our competitors. They decided that it was so strategically important to them that they conducted a several month long review of all the players, which included three of our major competitors, NPM, Equities, and Hive. And they ultimately decided to choose Forge with an exclusive partnership given our breadth of services.

And really what they’re trying to do here, Guru, is they’re of the understanding now that their clients are asking them about liquidity and lending opportunities in the space. And they just felt like they had to have a partner that they could refer clients to, partners to from their issuer base into Forge. And the most obvious use case here is the company is going to go to their trusted bank and say, Hey, who should we work with here? Silicon Valley Bank. You know the space.

You know all the players. And so this is really statement of our competitive advantage over the others in the space. And I just don’t think the bank wanted to trust anybody other than someone that they had vetted themselves. And so we’re really excited about that. I’d say what will come later are, besides referrals, are full blown integrations into some of these financial institutions.

And that was part of what the announcement of the next generation marketplace was all about. So not only could you refer an issuer to Forge, you actually could integrate an experience within the bank. And that could include some of the data that companies wanna see because companies are interested in understanding, you know, who wants to buy my stock and at what price. And so we think part of the data integration for companies themselves could extend from the Silicon Valley Bank relationship. We’re very excited by it.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Yeah. Once again, extremely promising stuff. Right? Like, we can yeah. I mean, I guess we can go on and on and on about these things, but, you know, some some larger trends that we must touch on, you know, tokenization still remains a very, very hard topic in this space.

Several exchanges have already begun making noise about this, you know, Robinhood, Kraken, Coinbase. So within this context, can you maybe just talk to us about where you see the market for tokenization heading? And if if you think Forge has a role to play in it, and if so, where and how?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. We’re really excited by this, and there’s two levels of it. The first level is anybody that’s gonna try and tokenize these securities will ultimately have to have, we believe, access to the underlying. And this is one of our beliefs about how this market will evolve. Obviously, you could tokenize any security you want, and there are different players that may or may not choose to actually hold the underlying asset.

And this is some of the controversy around tokenization that you’re seeing regulators take on right now. So let me be really clear. We believe that Forge will be a partner to anyone that’s looking to tokenize and who also knows that to do it properly, you have to have an ownership and a secure position in the underlying security that you’re tokenizing. So that’s answer number one. We are already being pursued by most of these credible platforms because we have access to the underlying.

Now, the secondary opportunity is even more exciting, and that is for Forge to actively partner in the tokenization of securities on our platform so that someone could come in to Forge’s next generation marketplace and have an opportunity to not only buy or sell a fund position, a direct position, but also a tokenized position. And while we haven’t made any specific announcements yet, we’re in very detailed conversations with the most highly credible people in the space. But either way, our view is our platform was built to integrate into other distribution forms, and that includes tokenized distribution. And so now it’s just a matter of who we partner with to go do it more formally. We think it’s coming, and we’re really excited about it.

We’re already hearing from many of the people that are making announcements in it today.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Very well. And then moving on to another large topic, which is regulation. Right? And, you know, that still remains a key topic when when when when private markets is brought up. And in 2025, we’ve seen considerable improvements, right, including the house passing a bill to expand the accredited investor definition.

And then recently, I believe last week was when president Trump signed an executive order to allow four zero one k’s to include private market investments, and we touched on this a little earlier. So can you just maybe give us an official take on what Forge sees in this current regulatory landscape, and how have conversations with legislators and poly policy market makers been?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. So there’s a lot of momentum here, and it’s all over the place. It’s crypto. It’s private assets. The announcement on four zero one k’s was particularly interesting.

And so everyone knows this. Back in 2019, we acquired a specialized custodian that was focused on holding private assets in retirement accounts. And back in 2019, a bunch of people asked me, Why did you do this? And I said, Because there is a world where today you can invest your IRA in an alternative asset. A lot of people don’t know how to do it, and there’s a specialized custodial capability to do it.

Forge is gonna be there as this becomes more mainstream. So this announcement on the 04/2001 k was right down the middle of the fairway of what we thought was going to happen at some point. And the reason is simple, because the alpha and the exposure to the asset class in a safe and sort of well allocated way is what now some of the largest, most respected asset managers in the world are seeing. And they’re pushing for this. So the momentum that’s now coming, we think we’re in a unique position to take advantage of.

And we actually believe that a rules based product like the 40 Act Fund is is is one of the perfect products to put into the four zero one k’s that people are talking about. Now there’s been a lot of news here related to, you know, are these assets liquid enough? And we think that obviously some products are more liquid than others. So the four zero one k plan products really are gonna tend to be more towards listed funds. And so we’re in a really great position to exploit that.

But in the last year, we’ve been on Capitol Hill talking to the SEC, talking on both sides of the aisle about policies that could help inform what the future holds for access to the to the asset class and to do it in a safe and sound manner. So this ruling that went through on the definition of accredited, this is still working its way through the Senate. There’s now actually three bills that have been pushed into the Senate. We’re not sure which one of them is going to win. They all have varying differences to them that are nuanced.

But we think this all emphasizes really what’s coming next, which is a broader support from the government to allow more investors to have access to the asset class. And we think that’s great for the market. It’s great for Forge. But it will also come with some guardrails that we think are important to ensure safety and soundness.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Okay. And and in and in your experience, have legislators and policymakers been open to conversations with industry participants like private market exchanges? Do you see that happening?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Absolutely. It’s it’s funny if if if I if I may, just give a little bit more color on this. Please. Depending on what side of the aisle you’re on, you’re finding good reasons to do this, whether it’s because you believe more employees should have the ability to sell their stock because they work at these companies for, you know, five, six, ten years. And if they’re not going public, they’ve put a lot of their energy in the creation of these extremely valuable businesses.

And I think, you know, regulators see that there’s a certain right to having access to that wealth distribution dynamic that happens when those companies finally do go public. And on the other side, I mean, it’s just pure capitalism. You want companies to be able to have flexibility in how they raise capital, who can invest in them, and flexibility in providing liquidity to their shareholders, whether they’re individuals or funds that invested them fifteen, eighteen years ago. So it’s been extraordinary to have these meetings because in a world where there’s a lot of division, partisan division, this is one issue that’s gotten a lot of bipartisan support. So we’re we’re super excited.

And we’ve had regulators show up to our events and wanna speak and and and listen as well.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Got it. That that that certainly is highly encouraging. Right? And then going back to just Ford specifically, you know, on the most recent earnings call, you guys kind of reemphasized the company’s commitment to reach reaching positive adjusted EBITDA by 2026. So to maybe just round this entire discussion out, can you share with us what’s driving this, you know, confidence?

Because we understand that Ford has been making steady progress, has reached certain milestones. So can you maybe just round this out for us and talk to us about how and why you’re feeling confident in reaching breakeven next year?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. First of all, let let me just say this. We we recognize that we’re in a massive TAM business, and we’re doing something that’s really excited exciting in the market that we’re in at this moment. But we also recognize that the public markets wanna see a combination of growth, and they want to see disciplined operating performance. And so we’re completely committed to doing this.

And we see at this moment, there’s a convergence of some of the scale and operational scalability. Some of this is supported by the recent launch of the next generation marketplace. It makes it more efficient for us to handle counterparties at scale. We just launched it, and so we’re still in this first sort of ninety days of tuning. But if you look at that, plus the EPS accretion of liquidity, plus the fact that some of our offshoring technology development is being in sourced or in house now, we’re going to see a combination of efficiency gains and revenue scale and a commitment to driving that breakeven that we think will get us there.

And we’re really excited about it. So, you know, I’d say it’s probably with all of our strategic priorities tied for number one in terms of what we’re committing to doing and making sure it happens.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: And, you know, like we’ve called out before, we personally think it’s right around the corner. Right? We can almost touch it. We also understand that while there’s no formal guidance that’s been issued yet, can you maybe just tell us about the timing of breakeven next year? Or it is or is or is it something that we must wait for a few more few more quarters?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: You know, James is my CFO is on on holiday with his family in Switzerland, and I think we’ve we’ve made it a very strong statement about it. I think, you know, we’re looking at obviously achieving efficiency and take taking actions, you know, before we get into 2026 so that 2026 is a reality. But I think I’ll wait for, for James to get back to give any further color on any sort of timing specifically in ’26.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Got it. Got it. And then, you know, shifting to an entirely different priority of Forge, which is international expansion. It’s one that we haven’t really touched on over the past few quarters, you know, justifiably so because priorities and focus has been elsewhere. So can you maybe just give us an update on where Forge stands in all of its international efforts?

And more importantly, is it still a priority or are we still looking at, you know, certain other growth phases of the company?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. We’re super excited about now the contribution in 2025 so far from our European operation. And if anything, we ended 2024 with a commitment to make our European operation a breakeven operation before the 2025. And we now have high confidence that that will happen given the kind of volumes that they’re putting up. What that means is I can now start looking at our next international location.

And so we’re currently looking at Asia, and we’re currently looking at The Middle East. We haven’t made a decision yet, but based on the visibility we’ve got around the revenue contribution that we’ve seen just through the first half of the year, we’re ahead of plan. And we’re very confident that our burn in that investment in Europe will have been extinguished coming out of 2025. So 2026, we will look to another location. We’re not sure how we’ll get there, whether it’s a land and expand as we did in Europe or whether it’s an acquisition, but we’re monitoring opportunities in both The Middle East and Asia.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Got it. Got it. And, you know, another thing I wanted to touch on was the fact that investor conversation has been somewhat limited. Right? It’s always been SPVs or distribution strategies or, you know, the overall IPO market outlook.

Is there anything that you personally wish the investor community focused on a little more just in understanding the private market exchanges overall and Forge specifically?

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Yeah. That’s a that’s a great question. I I I think I think we’re now at a point where the market needs to understand that this is a technology driven business. And I think because we didn’t announce our tech really the outcome of our tech until we launched next generation marketplace. I don’t think there was an understanding about just how scalable and how tech first this business is.

So I think that that investors out there should think about us as a combination of a tech driven platform and a recurring revenue data business. And that’s what will emerge in the coming months and quarters of Forge’s performance as we end ’25 and go into ’26. And so I think that’s something that I think will change and should change the view of how we trade, what multiple we should be trading at. And if you look at the contribution that we expect to get from our asset management in the liquidity deal, that should also be factored in to the way you look at the aggregate multiple that we trade at. So think about what highly does scalable data platform trade at, what does a highly attractive asset manager trade at, and what does a a high performing exchange trade at.

And I’d say, I hope that that the takeaway from this group and others is they see Forge differently than they did maybe in 2023 and certainly part of ’24.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: That’s very clear. Thanks a lot, Kelly. I think we’re we’re we’re two minutes over time, but I think the story is very clear. You know, we certainly understand where Ford stands right now, and and we have pretty solid visibility going into ’26. So thanks a lot for joining us today, Kelly.

And, you know, we hope to see you soon and, you know, continue the conversation throughout this year.

Kelly Rodriguez, CEO, Forge Global: Thank you, Guru. Thanks, everybody.

Guru Sudhat, Analyst, Oppenheimer: Thank you. And we’ll see you guys on the next session.

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