Earnings call transcript: Flow Traders NV Q2 2025 sees strong profit growth

Flow Traders NV reported a robust financial performance in Q2 2025, with net profit soaring nearly fourfold to €51.3 million. Despite this strong performance, the company’s stock fell by 1.66% in pre-market trading, reflecting some investor caution. According to InvestingPro data, the company maintains a "GREAT" financial health score of 3.54, indicating strong fundamental stability. The earnings call highlighted significant achievements, including a 14% year-over-year increase in the total value traded, reaching €1.7 trillion, and a consistent four-quarter streak of triple-digit net trading income.

Key Takeaways

• Net profit surged to €51.3 million, nearly four times the previous year.
• Total value traded increased by 14% year-over-year.
• The company launched AllUnity, a euro-based stablecoin, in partnership with DWS and Galaxy Digital.
• Fixed operating expenses rose by 15% year-over-year.
• Stock price decreased by 1.66% in pre-market trading.

Company Performance

Flow Traders NV demonstrated strong performance in Q2 2025, driven by increased trading activity and innovative product launches. The company maintained its leading position as a liquidity provider in the European ETP market and expanded its presence in the U.S. and Asian markets. The increase in total value traded to €1.7 trillion and a record shareholders’ equity of €821 million underscore the company’s robust market position.

Financial Highlights

• Revenue: €143.9 million
• Net trading income: €143.4 million
• Net profit: €51.3 million (nearly 4x increase year-over-year)
• Basic EPS: €1.18
• EBITDA: €68 million (47% margin, up from 29% last year)

Market Reaction

Despite the company’s strong financial performance, Flow Traders NV’s stock experienced a 1.66% decline in pre-market trading to $32.44. This movement places the stock near its 52-week high of $34.06, with a total return of 3.83% over the past year. InvestingPro analysis reveals several additional insights about the company’s valuation and future prospects, available in the comprehensive Pro Research Report.

Outlook & Guidance

Flow Traders NV is committed to its strategic pillars, focusing on optimizing its core business, expanding trading capabilities, and investing in technology and innovation. The company anticipates significant growth in ETP assets, projecting an increase from €17 trillion to €25 trillion by 2030, and expects fixed income ETF assets to grow from €2.5 trillion to €6 trillion by the same year. InvestingPro analysts note that while the company has been profitable over the last twelve months, they anticipate a sales decline in the current year. Subscribers can access 12+ additional ProTips and detailed analysis on the platform.

Executive Commentary

"We are very excited about the launch of AllUnity, our euro-based stablecoin," said Mark Dowson, Co-Chief Trading Officer. CEO Mike Kuno added, "The sheer utility function of a stablecoin has become very known globally." Kuno also emphasized the company’s commitment to embracing interoperability between traditional finance and digital assets.

Risks and Challenges

• Rising fixed operating expenses, which increased by 15% year-over-year.
• Volatility in cryptocurrency markets, with volumes declining quarter-over-quarter.
• Potential macroeconomic pressures affecting global trading activities.
• The competitive landscape in digital assets and ETP markets.
• Regulatory challenges associated with new product launches like stablecoins.

Q&A

During the earnings call, analysts inquired about the U.S. market performance, driven by volatility, and the strategic implications of the AllUnity stablecoin initiative. The company also addressed capital allocation strategies and introduced incoming CEO Thomas Spitz, highlighting leadership continuity and strategic focus.

Full transcript - Flow Traders NV (FLOW) Q2 2025:

Eric, Moderator/Host, Flow Traders: Good morning, and thank you for joining second quarter twenty twenty five results conference call. As you have no doubt already seen, we released our trading update first thing this morning along with the leadership update. I am joined here on the call by Flow Full Trader CEO, Mike Kuno, as well as our co chief trading officers, Alex Keith and Mark Dowson, who will run through this results presentation. We will be happy to take any questions you may have after the presentation. Before we begin, let me draw your attention to the disclaimer on page two.

Please be advised that if you continue to listen to this presentation, you are bound by this disclaimer. Also, please note that the results we will discuss in this presentation are unaudited. With the formalities out of the way, I would now like to hand over to Mike for his opening remarks.

Mike Kuno, CEO, Flow Traders: Thank you very much, Eric. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for dialing in. The 2025 as a whole saw elevated activity in market trading environment with volumes and volatility in traditional asset classes seeing a meaningful step up when compared to the same period a year ago. Flow Traders’ ETP value traded increased by 42% in the quarter compared to the last year and is largely in line with the market’s 50% year over year increase. Total value traded increased by 14% year over year to close to EUR 1,700,000,000,000.0, the third highest quarter in company history.

We achieved a net trading income of EUR 143,400,000.0 in the quarter, our fourth straight quarter of triple digit NTI and the first time in the company’s history. It was also the fifth triple digit NTI in the last six quarters, a strong validation of our growth and diversification strategy. The strength in the quarter was driven mostly by a sharp increase in activity in traditional asset classes across Europe and The Americas. The increase occurred mostly in the April following the liberation day tariff announcements from the new US administration. The flurry of activity did not last very long.

However, as a pause in the implementation of the tariffs was announced only a few days after the initial announcement. Market activity declined gradually from the April into May and June, with volatility in July running below historical averages. The higher than average market volatility in traditional asset classes in the early part of the quarter was offset by meaningfully lower volatility within digital assets. Similar to historical trends, crypto continues to exhibit countercyclical attributes when compared to traditional asset classes. As a result, we saw meaningfully lower contributions from digital assets in the quarter when compared to the same quarter a year ago and especially when compared to the first quarter.

Total income came in at EUR 143,900,000.0 for the second quarter, which included a 500,000 gain in other income. As a reminder, other income reflects the unrealized gains and losses of our investment portfolio, which also includes digital asset holdings and can fluctuate from quarter to quarter. Fixed operating expenses in the quarter were EUR 49,800,000.0, an increase of 15% year over year and a 2% decrease compared to the first quarter. We continue to plan for a meaningful step up in fixed OpEx this year to support select hiring of subject matter experts as well as increased technology investments given our growth and diversification strategy. We recorded a EUR 2,500,000.0 reversal of impairments in intangible assets related to our digital asset trading book in the quarter.

This is a partial reversal of the EUR 10,500,000.0 impairment we recorded in the first quarter. As a reminder, these below the line positions are hedged, and the gains or losses of the offsetting trades are recorded in our NTI. Given our relatively fixed cost base and high operating leverage, we generated an EBITDA of EUR 68,000,000 in the quarter, more than triple our results from a year ago at a 47% margin compared to 29% a year ago. As a reminder, our variable employee compensation is set at 32.5% of operating results, which aligns employee incentives with those of our shareholders. Net profit for the quarter increased to EUR 51,300,000.0, almost quadrupled the EUR 13,000,000 from the same period a year ago with a basic EPS of EUR 1.18.

Despite much of the elevated activity in early April having dissipated in May and June and lower contribution from digital assets, the solid results of this quarter serve as continued validation of our growth and diversification strategy. I will now hand it over to Alex for the next few slides.

Alex Keith, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Thanks, Mike, and good morning, everyone. As shown at the top left hand side of the slide, market GDP value traded increased by 50% in the second quarter compared to the same period a year ago and by 14% compared to the first quarter. Implied volatility in the quarter, as represented by the VIX, increased by 67% year over year and by 20% compared to the first quarter. Total ETP assets under management increased by 7% in the first half and 22% year over year to almost €15,000,000,000,000 giving continued record fund inflows into ETPs in the quarter and the strength of the overall market. ETP velocity increased in the second quarter compared to the first quarter to the highest level seen in more than two years.

In summary, the secular industry trend across the ETP universe continues to be strong. Market activity in the second quarter was the highest in more than two years, but remains well below levels seen in 2022 and 2020. I will now move on to the dynamics within the fixed income and crypto markets. As shown on the top left of the slide, trading volumes in the investment grade and high yield bond markets increased in the second quarter compared to last year, but investment grade volumes decreased compared to the first quarter. Volatility, as measured by the MOVE index, increased slightly both compared to last year and last quarter.

Trading volumes in cryptocurrencies increased in the quarter compared to last year, but declined meaningfully compared to the first quarter. Global crypto ETP market value traded also increased compared to last year, but declined compared to the first quarter. Moving on to the next slide. On slide six, we present an overview of some of the key performance indicators for the quarter on a regional basis. As mentioned earlier, market value traded increased substantially in the quarter, when compared to the same period a year ago.

However, market ETP value traded declined in Europe and Asia in the second quarter when compared to the first. The robust and comprehensive trading capabilities that we have developed over the years across different regions and asset classes put us in a great position to capture opportunities that arise in different parts of the market through different market environments. In Europe, we maintained our position as a leading liquidity provider in ETPs amidst increased market activity and volatility in the quarter. We were able to benefit from the sudden, but short lived spike in volatility in April on top of the continued record fund inflows into ETPs. In The Americas, Liberation Day tariff announcements drove significant increases in market trading volumes and volatility in April, alongside continued record fund inflows into ETPs.

However, market activity subsided in June and May, given the quick pause in the implementation of the tariffs. In Asia, trading volumes remained elevated in Hong Kong and China in the quarter when compared to the same period last year, but were lower quarter on quarter given the initial tariffs that were already announced in the first quarter. Trading volumes in China has doubled versus a year ago and is now two to three times that of Europe. Volumes in other regions increased

Mark Dowson, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Volumes in other regions increased both year on year and quarter on quarter as a result of the new tariff announcements. As a result, this was the company’s best second quarter result in Asia following a record year last year. In digital assets, volumes in crypto increased compared to the same period last year, but declined compared to the first quarter. Volatility declined meaningfully, both year on year and quarter on quarter. As a result, we saw much lower contributions from digital assets this quarter when compared to both last year and last quarter.

Let’s move on to the next slide. Fixed operating expenses in the quarter increased by 15% when compared to last year to €49,800,000 due mostly to increased employee and other expenses, but decreased by 2% quarter over quarter. We delivered a strong 49% EBITDA margin in the quarter compared to 29% in the same period a year ago, given the high operating leverage inherent in our business. We ended second quarter with six zero seven FTEs, a decrease from the six nineteen FTEs at the end of the first quarter. We continue to expect fixed operating expenses for the year to be in the range of 190,000,000 to €210,000,000 given additional technology investments and targeted additions of subject matter experts in growth areas, partially offset by expected operational efficiency gains.

On slide eight, we take a look at the historical performance of the company in the context of market volatility. The chart on the left shows our company’s steady NTI growth since our IPO. This growth is due to investments we’ve made in trading across regions and asset classes. Our strategy of growth and diversification allows it allows us to seize opportunities wherever possible. As a result, we can deliver strong results even when market activity is low and gain significantly during volatile periods.

The chart on the right highlights our consistently strong average EBITDA margins of over 40%. This success comes from the high operating leverage in our business, helped by our flexible compensation approach. Our mix of fixed and variable compensation brings employee pay to company profitability. This ensures our employees’ interests align with those of our shareholders. On slide nine, we highlight that trading capital is essential for any trading firm, and increasing it is a key priority for us.

Due to strong past returns on trading capital, we decided last year to expand our trading capital base further. We did this by suspending the dividend and seeking external debt. Thanks to this decision and strong profits, we have grown our trading capital to record levels, increasing it by 33% year on year and 4% since the first quarter, reaching $831,000,000 Our shareholders’ equity also reached record levels, growing by 29% year on year to €821,000,000 by the end of the second quarter. This growth matches the increase in trading capital. With increased market activity, we achieved strong returns for the first half of the year, 75 on average trading capital and 26% on equity.

These strong second quarter results confirm the success of our trading capital expansion plan and our diverse trading strategies. We believe that with more capital, we can continue to achieve significant returns and strengthen our position as a leading global trading firm, providing liquidity and efficiency in many financial markets. Moving to the next slide, I will discuss market trends and our strategy. Slide 10 highlights four key megatrends that support our strategy, and they remain strong. These trends shape our market environment, providing many opportunities for us.

Importantly, these trends complement and strengthen each other. A key trend for our business is the growing acceptance of exchange traded products and passive investing. In the second quarter of this year alone, total industry assets under management in ETPs grew by €1,800,000,000,000 This figure is expected to rise from €17,000,000,000,000 today to €25,000,000,000,000 by 02/1930, showing the strength and importance of the ecosystem we are a key part of. Electronification of trading is crucial for our activities, especially in the fixed income master class. It’s a major trend in corporate credit and emerging market sovereign bonds.

Increased use of electronic trading fits well with our tech driven strength. Fixed income ETF assets are expected to grow from 2,500,000,000,000.0 now to 6,000,000,000,000 by 02/1930. This growth is partially because of the increased electronification. With the recent regulatory developments on digital assets, there is more institutional interest globally. We expect continued growth in investor demand for this asset class, which is a long term growth opportunity for our company.

The technology behind it could boost the tokenization of real assets from $260,000,000,000 today to 30,000,000,000,000 by 02/1930. And finally, regulations benefit our business by ensuring fair execution and transparency, creating a level playing field for all. More oversight in digital assets provides industry safeguards and it removes barriers for investors. We are collaborating with global regulators to enhance transparency, efficiency, and liquidity across all markets and asset classes. Let’s move on to the last slide.

On this slide, I will recap the firm’s four key strategic pillars to grow, strengthen and accelerate the business. First, we are optimizing our core and increasing our capital. We aim to create a strong and efficient business model by improving our trading base. At the same time, we are growing our capital to enhance the value of our trading strategies across different asset classes and regions. The trading capital expansion plan from last year provides the necessary funds for us to continue expanding and diversifying.

Second, we are expanding and improving our training skills By using our in house infrastructure, capabilities and expertise, we are exploring new products and improving our existing training strategies. Our investment in digital asset trading over the past eight years shows our commitment to this strategy. Third, we focus on technology and innovation. We plan to use new technologies and data insights to improve our pricing and enhance efficiencies in trading. Finally, we are diversifying our business and revenue streams.

We invest in new business IDs and partnerships for connectivity, platforms, data, and tokens. By partnering with others, we aim to boost innovation in financial markets and grow our revenue. We are very excited about the launch of AllUnity, our euro based stablecoin with DWS and Galaxy. It’s an instrument that we expect to help bridge the world of traditional finance and digital assets, revolutionizing and bringing new possibilities to traditional finance as we know it. In conclusion, by focusing on our four main strategic goals, we believe that success, like we’ve seen this quarter, will become standard as we continue to deliver on each of these strategic priorities.

I will now hand the call back to Mike for final remarks.

Mike Kuno, CEO, Flow Traders: Thanks, Marc. I’m immensely proud of what we have collectively achieved during my tenure here at the company, which has culminated in the company’s first fourth consecutive quarter of triple digit NTI and the fifth in the last six quarters. Equally, I take pride in the development and growth of our global leadership team. Cultivating and attracting talent has been a pivotal focus during my four years, and I’m thrilled about the current standing of this team. I would like to extend my warmest welcome to my successor, Thomas Spitz, as he takes over the mandate to grow and expand the company.

I have full confidence in Flow Trader’s future and the leadership team in place as well as its ability to grow and become an even more significant force in promoting transparency, efficiency and resilience within global financial markets. I will now hand the call over to Erik for the Q and A.

Eric, Moderator/Host, Flow Traders: Thanks, Mike. This concludes the formal part of our presentation. We would now like to open up for any questions you may have. Operator?

Operator: And our first question comes from Julian Lobrovoloski from ABN AMRO ODDO. Please go ahead.

Mark Dowson, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: K. Hi. Good morning. Can you hear me? Yeah.

Unidentified Speaker: We can hear you. Yes.

Alex Keith, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Perfect. Yeah.

Julian Lobrovoloski, Analyst, ABN AMRO ODDO: Good morning, and thanks for taking my questions. I have three, if I may. So the first one is on The U. S. If you could give us some color on your strong performance in The U.

S. I’m just wondering from where does that come from. Also, if you look at the revenue capture, this also increased. And usually, I think if you look kind of in the past performances, and this is driven by your crypto trading activity, which you also stated was kinda weak in in in q two. So I was just kind of wondering from where is this boost to the NTI in America comes from, and then I have two follow ups, please.

Alex Keith, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Yes. Thanks, Julian. Happy to take the question. So what we normally see in our U. S.

Is that when volatility and market activity increases meaningfully that presents opportunities to us. We’ve seen that historically as well in volatile times. And then really the size and depth of the market combines with larger relative opportunities, improve our profitability there, just as we saw in, let’s say, 2022 or 2020. As to crypto, what we also typically see is that in times of heightened volatility in equities and fixed income is that people tend to worry more about that part of their portfolio rather than on crypto. So we saw just muted trading activity in general in crypto.

We see the bit as countercyclical and really as diversified away from the rest of our business. So we were able to allocate more capital towards equities and fixed income given the limited amount of opportunities we saw in the crypto markets.

Julian Lobrovoloski, Analyst, ABN AMRO ODDO: Understood. Thanks for that. And then two on the stablecoins, obviously, all Unity, I think this is quite an important project for you. And so far, doesn’t really not really reflected in the share price. Generally speaking, if you take a step back, can you speak about kind of remind remind us again about the whole intention with the project and maybe also speak about, you know, what kind of economics they expect to drive with it, customer deposits, AUM growth, distribution, etcetera, etcetera.

Mark Dowson, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Yeah. Thanks, Julian. I can take that question. So AllUnity is a tokenization platform that we’ll be launching in MICR compliant euro stablecoin called EuroAU. The launch of that is today actually on a platform called Bullish.

All Unity is backed by Flow Traders, DWS and Galaxy Digital. Flow Traders is a market maker to the EuroAU stablecoin. Galaxy Digital supporting with the infrastructure build out and DWS is the asset manager partner to All Unity. The economics of the stablecoin is similar of those of other stablecoins on the market, but the difference between AllUnity and other stablecoins is that AllUnity is BAFIN regulated and is MICR compliant.

Unidentified Speaker: And on

Julian Lobrovoloski, Analyst, ABN AMRO ODDO: the the distribution side, I mean Yes. Please go ahead.

Mike Kuno, CEO, Flow Traders: All the bits and pieces Mark shared are very much in the center of our discussions back then. But I think it’s also important just a bit of reflecting on the discussion we had in the past. The the sheer utility function of a stable coin has become very known globally as to the ability to connect traditional financial markets with with digital assets markets. And we stated in the past and can state it again, we have a quite agnostic perspective. We very much want to embrace the interoperability between both traditional finance and digital assets.

So if more and more demands comes to the market for digital assets, and this might be in the form of parking liquidity in or unity, parking liquidity or investing in tokens in the cryptocurrency remit, but down the road also with real world assets that are tokenized, then the utility of a stablecoin is very much important in order to increase efficiency across financial markets. And I think with the stablecoin initiative now, we are very much setting the stage for a European version of liquidity bridge between TradFi and digital assets. And I think that is a very important strategic step we are taking here in order to facilitate that innovation curve.

Julian Lobrovoloski, Analyst, ABN AMRO ODDO: Yeah. Understood. So thanks, Mike, for for for for the flavor. Also, an extension of this, I was just wondering because you so you spoke about the fact that, you know, Flowtrader will be the prime liquidity provider of the stablecoin. And I guess we just have to wait and see, you know, what’s gonna be the uptick of it, but, you know, hopefully, it’s gonna be decent one.

When you start trading the coin, obviously, you’ll generate, let’s say, spreads revenue in a way, so you’ll generate money out of it. I guess you also don’t know exactly to which extent, but I was also wondering if you look at the customer deposits of all Unity, can you actually use that in some sort as a trading buffer for your trading capital? I e, can you leverage somehow those deposits with the prime brokers to trade other products as well?

Mark Dowson, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Thanks for the question, Julian. As all Unity is Baffin regulated, like, the deposits are held one to one, so we are not able to use that. So, no, that’s that’s not a possibility as, your AU is fully backed one to one towards the euro, so we cannot, use those funds, for trading.

Julian Lobrovoloski, Analyst, ABN AMRO ODDO: Understood. Alright. Thank you so much. And, for those that go on a holiday, enjoy the summer break.

Unidentified Speaker: Same to you. Thanks, Kudin.

Operator: Thank you. We will now go to the written questions. The first one comes from Diogo Bernetta. He says, hello, can you provide a bit more color on capital allocation through 2025?

Alex Keith, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Yes, thanks for the question. So we typically can redeploy capital quite on a day to day basis where we see opportunities. The market opportunities as presented throughout 2025 were predominantly within the equities and fixed income markets and regionally more in Q1 in APAC and then Q2 just globally. So more was deployed towards equities trading and fixed income and less so towards crypto, given the volatility in the market and the opportunities that are presented.

Operator: All right. We’ll go to the next question from Rick Lucas. He says, is there a difference in opportunities and challenges between the European, American and Asia Pacific segments? And if so, how do you capitalize on these differences?

Alex Keith, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: In Europe, we are a market leader in trading ETPs, and our product coverage, we cover pretty much any ETF in Europe. So we are trying we will maintain that position and provide liquidity to our counterparties and partner with the issuers. In The Americas, given the size of the market there, what we see is that when volatility increases, we also see a meaningful contribution to our NTI and it’s still as the largest capital markets represents a meaningful growth opportunity for us, but it is a much more competitive market and you need to excel many fronts in order to really be a key player there. On the RFQ front, we are one of the leaders there. We’re in the top five typically on providing liquidity on an RFQ basis.

But on exchange, our market share is still lower. In Asia Pacific, that is also a meaningful growth opportunity for us. The Chinese ETF market alone is now two to three times the size of Europe, and it’s opening up to foreign investment firms and to market makers, and that presents a meaningful opportunity for us. In general, it’s a bit more fragmented the markets and each market has its own nuances. So many more markets in Asia represent an opportunity for us.

And we’ve established ourselves as a global ETF market maker, and we try to be present in every market and provide liquidity to enhance the markets there and also for our own revenue capture.

Operator: All right. Thank you. The next question comes from Nuno Rosa. He asks, Can you provide more clarity on what drove the Q operational cost increase of 40%? And also, what does the eight ms impairment of intangibles refer to?

Mark Dowson, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Yes. Thank you for the question. So most of the difference in the operational cost increase can be explained by an increase in variable comp. Also, the fixed increases of our cost can be explained by additional hires due to our strategy. On the eight ms impairment of intangibles, I believe that is the difference between our Q1 and Q2 posted impairment of intangibles.

So as many of you maybe can recollect, in Q1 we posted a minus 10,000,000 on impairment, and this quarter we posted a reversal of €2,000,000 So in total, you get then to €8,000,000 of impairment of intangibles.

Alex Keith, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: And to add, this is part of our trading book, so there’s a corresponding positive in in NTI. That’s because of how some of these positions have to be recognized under IFRS accounting, and therefore this line item came below the line as an impairment. But again, there’s a it is we generally apply hedges and there is a corresponding positive in the NTI.

Operator: All right. Thank you. The next question is there’s a difference in net profit and addition to the trading capital of about EUR 23,000,000. Can you elaborate on that?

Mark Dowson, Co-Chief Trading Officer, Flow Traders: Yes. Our trading capital did not increase as much as our net profits due to cash flows we had to pay out in the second quarter. And well, some of these cash flows are for example our annual tax bills.

Operator: All right. The next question again from Rick Lucas. He asks, what qualities will Thomas Spitz as CEO bring to the table in your preliminary judgment? And how will he be different from Mike? Will he share will he share Flow Traders in a new direction?

And if so, which one?

Unidentified Speaker: Yeah. I can take this question. So, Thomas, we joined the firm with a diverse background across trading, sales, and research in a very international setting and has demonstrated what his career drive to identify opportunities to innovate. And in the short term, addressing the question on changes to the strategy, Thomas will continue the execution of the firm’s growth and diversification strategy that was laid out at the capital markets update in ’22 and the trading capital expansion plan as announced in July. What Thomas will do is to bring his wealth of experience as just outlined to the table in order to enhance these strategies and drive increased investments in certain areas where he sees the biggest opportunities for the firm and think the capabilities and his experience will help us to find tangible opportunities to to accelerate where possible, building up on the strengths and the profile we have built over the last few years.

Operator: Alright. Thank you for that. Right now, there are currently no questions sent to the operator. Questions that are not answered currently might be answered at a later stage. So I would now like to hand over the call back to Eric Pan for any closing remarks.

Eric, Moderator/Host, Flow Traders: Thank you, operator. We would like to thank all the analysts for participating in today’s call as well as the questions that were submitted online. Please note that we will host our next analyst call when we release our third quarter trading update in October. Details and timing for this call will follow in due course. This now ends the call.

Thanks again. Have a great day.

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