Earnings call transcript: Sonae reports strong growth in Q1 2025

Sonae reported a robust financial performance in Q1 2025, achieving significant growth in revenue and EBITDA. The company’s revenue reached nearly €10 billion, marking an 18% increase compared to 2023. EBITDA surpassed €1 billion for the first time, reflecting a 4.5% growth. According to InvestingPro data, the company maintains a "GOOD" overall financial health score of 2.6, despite an increase in debt due to acquisitions. With 12 exclusive ProTips available on InvestingPro, investors can gain deeper insights into Sonae’s financial position and growth prospects. The company also outlined strategic initiatives and future goals, including a proposed dividend increase and sustainability targets.

Key Takeaways

• Revenue increased by 18% year-over-year, reaching nearly €10 billion.
• EBITDA growth of 4.5%, exceeding €1 billion for the first time.
• Net result improved by 18% on a comparable basis, reaching €223 million.
• Strategic acquisitions and investments in sectors like pet care and cybersecurity.
• A proposed 5% increase in dividend per share.

Company Performance

Sonae’s performance in Q1 2025 demonstrated strong growth across its business segments. The company’s revenue growth of 18% was driven by organic growth and strategic acquisitions. The net result also showed an 18% increase, reflecting improved operational efficiencies and successful integration of acquisitions. In the competitive food retail market, Sonae’s MC division strengthened its market position, while NOS achieved its best year ever in the telecommunications sector.

Financial Highlights

• Revenue: Nearly €10 billion, an 18% increase from 2023.
• EBITDA: Over €1 billion, a 4.5% increase year-over-year.
• Net result: €223 million, up 18% on a comparable basis.
• Debt: Increased by €160 million due to acquisitions.

Outlook & Guidance

Looking forward, Sonae is targeting a 5% increase in dividend per share and aims to achieve 100% plastic packaging recyclability by 2025. InvestingPro data reveals the company has maintained dividend payments for 55 consecutive years, with a current dividend yield of 4.3%. The company is also focused on increasing female leadership positions to 45% by 2026. With analysts predicting continued profitability and sales growth this year, Sonae plans to maintain flexibility and agility in response to the uncertain economic landscape.

Executive Commentary

Zuall Dolores, Sonae’s CFO, highlighted the company’s financial achievements, stating, "We practically reached €10 billion... an 18% increase versus 2023." Dolores also emphasized the importance of adaptability, saying, "In this evolving landscape, we need to remain flexible, agile."

Risks and Challenges

• Competitive pressures in the food retail market.
• Potential macroeconomic challenges, including trade tensions and protectionist policies.
• Managing increased debt levels following acquisitions.
• Ensuring successful integration of new acquisitions and investments.

Q&A

During the earnings call, analysts inquired about competitive pressures in the food retail sector and the company’s strategies for managing margin challenges. Sonae’s management addressed these concerns by discussing mitigation strategies and capital spending plans.

Full transcript - Sonoco Products Comp (SON) Q4 2024:

Conference Moderator: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Sone’s twenty twenty four Results Presentation. Our host today is Mr. Zuall Dolores, Sone’s CFO. This conference starts with a presentation followed by Q and A.

I will now pass the call on to Mr. Dolores. You may start, sir.

Zuall Dolores, CFO, Sonae: Thank you very much for the introduction. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us for Sonae’s twenty twenty four results presentation. I’m very happy to have you here with us today. As you will see, we had great results last year.

Together with me, as usual, and besides the investor relations team, I have, Christina Novak on my left, Miguel Moraira as well, Ferdinand Rasler on my right hand side and Paul Simonsch. Today, we’re trying on a new format, a video one. I hope it works well and that it helps also in conveying the the main messages that we have to convey to you. So I’ll start with briefly recalling, the significant moves in our portfolio during 2024. As you know, it was a quite intense year in terms of investments.

We invested over €1,100,000,000 in the m and a efforts. And there there are two transactions in particular which I would like to highlight given the importance that they have for the group. So in March, as you know, we successfully, built a leading position, a majority position in Musti, a reference pet care retailer in The Nordics through a public tender offer. Sonae currently owns just over 80% of the company and we see Musti as a promising platform for growth in the European pet care landscape. Last November, Musti extended its presence to new geographies to The Baltics by acquiring PetCity, a player that operates in all three Baltic countries.

In July, we concluded the merger of Arenal with Druni under MC thus establishing the leading health and wellness and beauty player in Iberia. And this is also a platform where we see great potential for continued growth on the back of a very, very strong year of 2024. All the acquisitions, the major acquisitions that we did last year are important stepping stones for growth and they’ve all been done together with good solid management teams that remain alongside us in the management of these companies. That is true for Adri, for Druni, it’s true for Musti and it’s also true for BCF, the largest acquisition done under Spark Food in 2024. I will share a bit more information about the financials and the performance of these companies as I go along.

So if you look at our portfolio right now, we believe we strengthened the portfolio with a number of areas. We have enlarged our presence in the retail sector. We have expanded our geographical reach positioning ourselves for growth. And we strongly believe that these new opportunities can be captured in in the months to come and we can help these companies accelerate their growth protection. Most of our companies are leading companies in their respective sectors.

And in the sectors where we are not leaders, we have a clear path to achieve leadership. I would also like to highlight a transaction which was already completed in 2025 which was the acquisition by NOS of Cladet Portugal, a very important transaction, an investment of over a hundred and €50,000,000 to better position NOS in the ICT space in terms of services for b to b customers. So NOS wants to position itself more and more as a digital partner for Portuguese companies and this acquisition is going to be instrumental in that regard. I will now go into each one of the businesses starting as usual with MC. MC had a fantastic year in 2024.

As you can see, it’s continued to increase its market leadership position in food retail in the country. We enhanced our market share by 50 basis points thus increasing, the gap versus number two in the country. We we grew in total more than 7% to €6,500,000,000 in the grocery segment with a like for like of 4.4% and stable EBITDA margin versus 2023. If you look at the other segments, you have the big segment that composes the portfolio that I see health and wellness and beauty, we more than doubled the size of the business debt, obviously, with a contribution from a Dhruv News acquisition. But even without that contribution, the business had a like for like growth of 10% with very strong performances from both Wells and that amount during the year and with an enhanced EBITDA margin of 12.5% also benefiting from the integration of Druni’s results in the latter half of the year.

If you look at consolidated figures for MC, MC reached record record level, turnover. So growing by 15% to 7,600,000,000.0 and the total EBITDA margin went up from 9.7% to 10% in the year. In terms of, balance sheet, the company continued to enhance, its financial position. And if you look at the pro form a consolidation of Duni’s numbers into our accounts, this means a decrease in net debt to EBITDA of 2.8 times from 2.8 times to 2.7 times. Moving on to Vorten.

Vorten also had a very positive year in terms of growth. So total growth of 8% to €1,400,000,000 slightly above that if you consider total GMV which includes the sales done by our by the sellers on our marketplace. 4.2% like for like growth, with a very strong performance not only in the core electronics business but also in extended ranges that we have in the marketplace and also in the services business units. And so we continue to have very strong momentum in all areas, of Vorton’s offering. And that means that we increased also our market share in Portugal both offline and online in the core electronics segment.

Small notes to, iServices, which continued to expand its presence internationally. And so it continued to grow in Portugal but also expanding its presence in Spain, France, and Belgium with a quite distinctive concept which we believe can have further potential to grow outside of the country. And in terms of total profitability, the margin was a bit pressured by increased costs and also a bit of gross margin erosion. But still, the team was able to almost compensate that fully with efficiency measures and we were able to maintain a bit to gain margin at a healthy level of 5.6%. Regarding Moosti, the numbers I’m showing here are for Q4 as Moosti had to close the year with a fifteen month period to align with our financial calendar.

I would say that Moosti’s performance throughout the year was improving. So a bit of a hard couple of quarters in Q2 and Q3 with a challenging macroeconomic backdrop in The Nordics putting some strain and some pressure on private consumption. But already in Q4, we saw improvements in terms of like for like growth but also in terms of total growth. In the quarter, the company actually grew 5.6% to €122,000,000 And throughout the year, the company continued to improve its market share in all its key geographies. And so it was a tough backdrop in the market but, in Finland, in Sweden and in Norway, we continue to increase our market share which is obviously quite important for us to make sure that that we maintain our leading positions in these geographies and are better prepared to seize market growth when it resumes and we feel that happening already going into 2025.

In terms of profitability, EBITDA margin was a bit pressured, came down to 14.1%. But the economic outlook and consumer confidence that we are seeing right now in The Nordics are improving, driven by lower interest rates and also increased purchasing power. And most of these fundamentals remain quite strong. So we believe the company is well positioned to capitalize on this economic recovery and the again, the return of the pet care market to its long term growth trajectory. Sierra, our real estate business, had a very strong momentum in its core shopping center operations both in Europe and in Brazil.

In Europe, our tenant sales reached €3,500,000,000 increasing 5.3% year on year. So a very strong display in terms of footfall, in terms of sales from our tenants and and so with a very positive impact in our EBITDA and our direct result. Our shopping centers continue in Europe continue with practically full occupancy, which is a good sign of the quality of the assets. And if you look at total net results, we increased that by 9.8% to €97,000,000 here also with a contribution from revaluations of assets in the portfolio. This improved net results was the main driver for the increase in NAV which in which grew by 4.5%.

And our total assets under management increased also to €6,800,000,000 with a very strong performance with a very strong weight of of shopping centers but we’re already but already with a higher diversification in terms of real estate uses. As today, a quarter of our assets under management are already in alternative real estate segments. If you look at our LTV, it remains practically flat versus last year so the company has a very healthy balance sheet and debt position. NOS, in its tenth anniversary, had its best year ever in terms of operational and financial performance. So it grew 6.2% to €1,700,000,000 with strong performances across all the segments, not only the telco business but also in terms of the cinema exhibition business and within telco with strong displays in both b to c and b to c segments.

That growth means that the company continued to gain market share in the Portuguese telephone market and is now even closer to number one in the market as we strive to reach market leadership in years to come. EBITDA margin was improved by 20 basis points to 38% as we continue to have strong efficiency measures deployed across the company and have registered a very, very strong operational performance. Net income and free cash flow had an extraordinary performance in 2024. As you probably saw already as the company announced the results of the market a couple of weeks ago, net income increased 50% to €272,000,000. Free cash flow had a very strong increase to €360,000,000.

Here, both metrics influenced not only by the strong operational performance but also by some extraordinary impacts such as the sale of an an additional set of mobile towers to Cellnex, but also some, rulings in our favor in terms of the activity fee that Anacom had to return to operators in 2024. But overall, a very strong display from Notch both operationally and financially. Brightpixel had a resilient year. It was a less active year in terms of the investment management activity, but it was a quite resilient year in terms of the performance of the underlying assets and also in terms of evaluation of these assets in our on our balance sheet. So currently, we hold 45 companies in the portfolio in the three segments that you know, cybersecurity, retail tech and infrastructure, and software.

During ’24, Brightpixel invested in four new companies, mostly in the cybersecurity area. We also sold a couple of of companies in the portfolio but NAV was practically stable and it still represents roughly a two times cash on cash return vis a vis the investment that was made historically in these businesses. So going on to consolidated results. If you look at our consolidated figures, this year was a milestone year for us. So we we practically reached €10,000,000,000 And in pro form a terms, we more than overcame that figure.

So an 18% increase versus 2023. And even excluding M and A, we are talking about 7% growth in total. So quite strong growth. And if you look at the longer term trend here and if you look at the last nine or ten years, you could see that the growth momentum has been accelerating. And this is very important for us because it means that obviously we are, generating higher returns.

We are reaching more communities. We are reaching more people with our value propositions and with our mission. And so this is really what drives us and and what’s, makes us run at the end of the day. So, if you look at the last few years, you can see the acceleration of growth which we expect to continue, to register in years to come. The growth came from several, angles as you can see.

So very strong display from, most of our retail businesses but also from the acquisitions that we made throughout the year. So strong contributions from, the the MC food component also from health and wellness and beauty organically and inorganically. Vorton also with an important contribution to our growth and then the the consolidation of Moesky obviously has an important impact here as well. And so if you if you see, most of the growth came from our major retail businesses and that we expect that to be the case also in the next couple months. In terms of EBITDA, we reached for the first time over a billion euros of total EBITDA, a four and a half four and a half percent growth.

This growth is actually even more significant if you take into consideration that last year we had a hundred and sixty eight million years of capital gains from the sale of our 30% stake at ISRG. But even with that soft comparable, we were able to increase our EBITDA by four and a half percent. And again, if you look at our longer term trend, you see that the growth in EBITDA has been double digit in the last few years. And and so this is also something which is very important to us making sure that we grow but we don’t go at the expense of operating profitability which has been increasing and improving in all our major businesses. All in all, our net result reached €223,000,000 on a comparable basis, an 18% increase versus last year if we exclude the contribution from the capital gain of ISRG last year.

So quite strong display in terms of net income and bottom line. And if we look at the evolution of our balance sheet and our debts, our debt actually increased by €160,000,000 but that’s mostly on the back of the acquisitions that were done during the year. If you look at the cash flow generation capacity of our portfolio, it reached €286,000,000 and then obviously with a 1,100,000,000.0 of M and A, we have this increased effect. But still we are at quite comfortable levels of leverage, 16% LTV which we will bring down in the next few quarters and with very strong, fun very attractive funding conditions, very enlarged maturity profiles and with a very comfortable profile of debts which is above three years right now in terms of maturity. So we are quite comfortable with the balance sheet that we have right now, but we will probably deleverage the company significantly over the next few quarters.

Our dividend policy remains the same, and so we are proposing that the the dividend that will be proposed to the AGM will be again a 5% increase in DPS which equates to a dividend yield of roughly six, six and a half percent which complies with our historical and very consistent dividend policy. We continue to progress also in a number of ESG objectives. We are on track on most of these objectives which are quite stringent and quite demanding. We continue to decrease our carbon footprint by lowering our our CO2 emissions. We’ve reached 90% of plastic packaging recyclability in our own label.

We have we have a very strong target of 100% by 2025. We will probably not be able to reach it because it’s technically not possible. But the fact that we put this target out there means that we went from 70% in 2019 to 90% this year which is an amazing achievement that we are very proud of that. In terms of leadership positions occupied by women, we have a target of 45% by 2026. We are at 41% in ’24 and also on track to reach our desired goal.

So, when I think about what’s coming in 2025, it’s hard to say as you can imagine in terms of global geopolitics and macro economy. So we are living under a backdrop of a lot of uncertainty. Trade tensions, a lot of protectionist policies being waved around. And at the same time, lower interest rates should provide for some relief in terms of financial costs and also consumer spending. But in this evolving landscape, we need to do what we’ve always done in the last few years which is to remain flexible, agile, making sure that we have the ability to act quickly on changing circumstances and ultimately seek for long term growth and value creation.

All our businesses will strive to maintain their leading positions in their respective businesses and I’m quite confident given what we are seeing at this stage that that will be the case. So, very happy to share these results with you as they reflect again the efforts of thousands of people that worked along, that worked throughout the year to make these results possible. And now we will obviously be open for your questions. Thank you again for listening and for your trust in Sonaeq. You can open the questions the session to Q and A please.

Conference Moderator: Thank you. Our first question comes from Joao Pinto of Fernet. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Joao Pinto, Analyst, Fernet: Hi, good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for taking my question. Regarding food retail, how is the competitive backdrop evolving in terms of promotion intensity? You keep reporting strong sales, Mercadone is also growing quite fast. Our competitors are responding.

Related to this, do you see any margin risk into 2025? And still on Food Retail, how many stores do you want to open in 2025? And what’s the split between grocery and health and beauty? Then on Wusti, are you seeing any signs of rebound in terms of demand? And could you provide your target for store openings in 2025?

Thank you very much.

Zuall Dolores, CFO, Sonae: Okay. Thank you, Joao.

Management Representative, Sonae: Hi Joao. Thank you very much for your questions. Tackling them one by one. So in terms of the competitive position, as you mentioned, the Portuguese market is highly competitive at the moment, the food retail market. What we are seeing is the level of promotions more or less stable, slightly increased over the last quarters.

And in terms of price investment we’re seeing the players I would say quite aggressive in terms of the price investment in the market. Obviously and that being said, MC has been performing well in terms of sales as you mentioned. I would also say that in terms of the competitive landscape it’s important to mention the investments of many players in the market in terms of expansion and refurbishments. In terms of expansion the sales area in the market is growing about 2%, three % a year which has obviously put pressure in terms of the competitive landscape and in terms of refurbishment. As you know, a lot of our competitors and ourselves are investing a lot on their store network.

And so even from a demand and from a supply standpoint, we’re seeing a lot of pressure. And that’s on the food retail side. In terms of the margin for 2025, as you know, our cost base is increasing at the higher pace than our inflation in top line. Our estimate for this year of food inflation as Ron mentioned in this morning is about 2% and our cost base is growing in terms of inflation at about 4% to 5% and obviously that puts pressure in terms of our margins. That being said, MC has been deploying an important cost to serve program over the last years.

We’ll continue to be very focused on efficiency and obviously focusing on volumes growth in this highly competitive market. And so our goal for this year is obviously to not to decrease EBITDA margin and we are confident that with the value proposition, the strategy being very clear, we’ll be able to deliver it in 2025. In terms of the openings, in terms of our strategy is to maintain more or less what we have done in 2024. For food retail, we have opened as you know 25 stores in 2024, probably more or less the same in 2025. On the health, wellness and beauty side, we opened 21 stores in Wells, Thirty Two in Druney.

I would say that it shouldn’t be very different in the year of 2025 both on the food side as well as in health, wellness and beauty.

Zuall Dolores, CFO, Sonae: Okay. I can tackle the the mostly questions. The answer to your first question is yes. We are already seeing a better performance in terms of demand and in terms of growth. As you know, we finished the year with, a like for like of around 1%.

And we are seeing progressively from January to March that low single digit like for like go up to a high single digit like for like. So a very, healthy much healthier performance in terms of growth in our like for like store network. And in terms of openings store openings, We don’t mostly doesn’t offer it’s a listed company. As you know, it doesn’t provide guidance. But I can tell you that last year, we opened half a dozen stores, so five to six stores in each of the main geographies of expansion.

So excluding Finland because Finland is quite a mature market in terms of store footprint. But if you consider Sweden and Norway, we opened five, six stores in each geography and you can expect that to be the norm going into 2025 as well.

Joao Pinto, Analyst, Fernet: Thank you very much.

Zuall Dolores, CFO, Sonae: Thank you, Joao.

Conference Moderator: Thank you. We’ll now take our next question from Antonio Tslebas of AES Research. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Antonio Tslebas, Analyst, AES Research: Good afternoon. I have a specific question regarding Sonae MC. Your depreciation increased, sequentially increased a lot and also the taxes, tax provisions also increased. I don’t know if you can explain or provide some explanation about these two things. Thank you very much.

Joao Pinto, Analyst, Fernet: Sure.

Management Representative, Sonae: Hi, Antonio. Thank you very much for the questions. On the depreciation, it’s mainly the impact of the acquisition of Druni. And so obviously it impacts both on the fixed assets but mainly really on the lease liabilities and obviously with the opening of our stores and the investments in terms of refurbishments, we are obviously seeing a higher level of depreciations this year. In terms of the taxes, I would say there are, I would say, three main components.

One is around the inclusion of Brunei in our taxes. Obviously, that has a relevant impact. The good performance, operational performance of the business has also increased the tax basis. And so that’s the second component. And the third component, there are a couple of accounting adjustments which doesn’t are not included in the are not included necessarily.

There is a difference between the accounting taxable income and the taxable income and therefore there is a difference in accounting which also accounts for relevant part of this difference versus the last year.

Antonio Tslebas, Analyst, AES Research: Just a follow-up question on the depreciation and if you can provide some color in terms of capital spending. So this figure of depreciation, should we see this on the quarterly basis or should keep the profile of the pattern that we have seen in the last quarters?

Management Representative, Sonae: Okay. So there is a go ahead, please.

Antonio Tslebas, Analyst, AES Research: I was asking if I didn’t maybe I didn’t explain well, but just profile on the depreciation increase usually in the last quarter and I’m asking if we should see again same profile or not?

Management Representative, Sonae: Yes. So I would say there is a in terms of CapEx and and the investment for next year, it’s not necessarily our question but it’s related to it. So we’re expecting to see more or less the same level of CapEx both in terms of health, wellness and beauty and food. There were a couple of extraordinary effects in the depreciation in 2024 that we probably will not see at the same level in 2025. But I would say it should not be too far away from what we have seen in the last quarters.

Antonio Tslebas, Analyst, AES Research: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank

Jerome Van Hatten, Analyst, Degroof Petercam: you.

Conference Moderator: We will now take our next question from Jerome Van Hatten of Degroof Petercam. Please go ahead.

Jerome Van Hatten, Analyst, Degroof Petercam: Yeah, good afternoon. Two questions from my side. First one on capital allocation. Some of your peers like XOR, Wendell, GBL, they have been selling listed assets lately to buy back shares or to deleverage a bit. So could you just talk a bit about how you look at these transactions of your peers?

And could you comment whether you would consider such a transaction to be part of your capital allocation toolkit, if I may call it that? And then a second question is maybe relevant for BrightPixel. Could you maybe give a comment on the exit market? What you’re seeing there? Is the bid ask spread narrowing or is it still an issue today?

Thank you.

Zuall Dolores, CFO, Sonae: Thank you. Let me just make sure that I understood the first question. So the first question is on the possibility of doing share buybacks as an alternative in terms of capital allocation. Was that the question?

Jerome Van Hatten, Analyst, Degroof Petercam: Yeah. What we see that these holding companies are selling listed participations from their portfolio and they are in those proceeds to buy back shares of their own holding company. Yeah.

Zuall Dolores, CFO, Sonae: So thank you. I can take that one first and then I’ll ask Steven to answer the one on Bright Pixel. So we currently don’t have any such plans. And so the investments that we the portfolio that we have investments is is one that we feel quite comfortable with. And so the exposure that we have to our different assets in the portfolio is the one that we want to have and that ensures that we have the influence, that we currently have to deploy to help these companies deploy their strategies.

And so we are not planning to divest, make any significant divestments in any of our listed companies. In terms of share buybacks, this is obviously something that we have discussed in the past. It’s something that we have decided not to do in the recent past and and we also don’t have any short term plans to do to do buybacks. We we understand the economic rationale the potential economic rationale to do so. But we as long as we feel that there are good investment opportunities to deploy capital and to generate superior returns in our existing portfolio, we would we will always pledge those those options.

So, the short answer to that is we don’t have the same plans as other investment holdings have executed in recent months.

Management Representative, Sonae: Okay. Can I start? Regarding Bright Pixel and the exit question, the market continues to be very close to VC exits. We have been seeing some positive signs on the IPO market, but still very modest. In terms of M and A exits, we see some transactions, but lower levels because the M and A last year was focused on earlier companies, which means that the money that the exit transaction generates is lower than what investors need to pool the VC market.

In that sense, of course, we have a great portfolio and we expect to return a lot of value to the globe and we are always aware of the opportunities that arise to execute that strategy. But we are not pressured to sell the assets, so we are waiting for the market to open and to execute the best exits. But we did this year two exits with a great return, and we hope to do it again during the next year and the next ones. And we hope that the market helps us to give this value that we have in our portfolio. I don’t know if I answered

Antonio Tslebas, Analyst, AES Research: or you

Jerome Van Hatten, Analyst, Degroof Petercam: Yes, that’s very clear. Thank you very much. You’re welcome. Thank you.

Conference Moderator: Thank you. And we will now move on to our next question from Guillaume Sampaio of Caixa Bank. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Guillaume Sampaio, Analyst, Caixa Bank: Hello. Thank you for taking my question. So I appreciate your comments on the MC margins for next year. But specifically for Q4, on grocery retail, we’ve seen a slight decline in margins, we’re coming from a slight improvement trend. So what could explain this decline in Q4 specifically?

Thank you.

Management Representative, Sonae: Lian, thank you very much. Very good question. So in Q4, as a whole in the year, as you know, we have maintained our EBT margin in the grocery part of MC business. In Q4, we had a couple of extraordinary costs which deteriorated our margin by 0.1 percentage points. And so from a, let’s say, recurrent EBITDA standpoint, our margin did not decline in Q4 twenty twenty four.

Also, as you mentioned, based on the strong performance in terms of sales and also in terms of cost discipline. And so that was really a one off which was driven by some extraordinary costs.

Guillaume Sampaio, Analyst, Caixa Bank: Okay. Thanks.

Conference Moderator: Thank you. That was our last question. I will now hand it back to Mr. Dolores for closing remarks.

Zuall Dolores, CFO, Sonae: Okay. Thank you very much for your questions. Thank you very much for listening into our results. And we will see you again in May when we announce our q one results, hopefully, with the same backdrop, the same positive backdrop that we saw at the end of twenty twenty four. Thank you very much and see you next time.

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