Earnings call transcript: Swiss Life Q3 2025 sees steady growth, confirms targets

Swiss Life Holding AG reported its third-quarter 2025 earnings, highlighting a stable financial performance and confirming its strategic targets for the coming years. The company saw a 3% increase in fee and commission income, reaching CHF 1.9 billion, while premiums, fees, and deposits rose by 3% to CHF 16.3 billion. The SST ratio was estimated at 205%, reflecting robust financial health.

Key Takeaways

• Fee and commission income rose by 3% in local currency.
• Gross premiums, fees, and deposits increased by 3%.
• Strong performance in unit-linked business, especially in France.
• Swiss Life confirmed its 2027 program targets.

Company Performance

Swiss Life's performance in Q3 2025 was marked by steady growth across various segments. The company expanded its insurance and fee businesses, benefiting from strong market conditions in France and Germany. The unit-linked business performed particularly well, contributing significantly to the overall growth.

Financial Highlights

• Fee and commission income: CHF 1.9 billion, up 3%
• Gross premiums, fees, and deposits: CHF 16.3 billion, up 3%
• Direct investment income: CHF 3.1 billion
• Non-annualized direct investment yield: 2.2%
• SST ratio: 205% at the end of September 2025

Outlook & Guidance

Swiss Life maintained its strategic targets for 2027, expecting full-year net new assets in the upper teens (billions) and targeting 25% non-recurring income in third-party asset management. The company anticipates a marginal impact from the lowered Swiss reference rate.

Executive Commentary

Group CEO Matthias Aellig expressed satisfaction with the company's performance, stating, "We are pleased with the performance of Swiss Life in the first nine months of 2025." Group CFO Marco Gerussi added, "We expanded both our insurance and fee businesses," highlighting the company's strategic growth initiatives.

Risks and Challenges

• Potential impact of fluctuating interest rates on investment income.
• Market competition in the life insurance and asset management sectors.
• Economic uncertainties in core markets such as Switzerland and France.

Swiss Life's Q3 2025 earnings demonstrate consistent growth and strategic alignment, positioning the company well for future challenges and opportunities.

Full transcript - Swiss Life Holding AG (SLHN) Q3 2025:

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Swiss Life Q3 2025 Trading Update Conference Call and Live Webcast. I am Sandra, the call's co-operator. I would like to remind you that all participants are in listen-only mode, and the conference is being recorded. The presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. You can register for questions at any time by pressing star and one on your telephone. Webcast viewers may submit their questions or comments in writing via the relevant field. Kindly note that the webcast questions will be answered after the call. For operator assistance, please press star and zero. The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it is my pleasure to hand over to Matthias Aellig, Group CEO of Swiss Life. Please go ahead, sir.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for dialing in and for your interest in Swiss Life. Today, we are reporting on selected top line figures for the first nine months of 2025. I will provide an overview of today's key messages, and our Group CFO, Marco Gerussi, will give you more details. In the first nine months of 2025, Swiss Life increased its fee and commission income by 3% in local currency to CHF 1.9 billion. Gross rate and premiums, fees, and deposits received increased by 3% in local currency to CHF 16.3 billion. Direct investment income grew to CHF 3.1 billion, which corresponds to a non-annualized direct investment yield of 2.2%. Swiss Life Asset Managers reported very strong net new asset inflows of CHF 15 billion in the third-party asset management, compared to CHF 3.4 billion in the prior year period.

The SST ratio was estimated to be around 205% at the end of September 2025. I am pleased with the business development in the nine months of 2025, which reflects the continuation of our operational performance in the first half of the year. We grew both the insurance and the fee businesses, with asset managers posting a strong growth of recurring fee income in TPAM, next to strong net new assets. With that, I hand over to Marco.

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: Thank you, Matthias. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'm pleased to walk you through our nine months 2025 trading update. As usual, all figures are unaudited. Figures for the group are reported in CHF and for each business division in local currency, and growth rates are also stated in local currency. Let me start with our segment, Switzerland. Premiums increased by 2% to CHF 8.2 billion. The life insurance market was flat. Premiums in Group Life grew by 2% to CHF 6.8 billion, while the market decreased by 2%. Periodic premiums declined by 2%. Single premiums increased by 6%, driven by higher premiums from existing clients and new business. Assets under management in our semi-autonomous foundations were at CHF 8.1 billion, compared to CHF 7.8 billion at year-end 2024. Premiums in Individual Life grew by 2%. The overall market was up by 4%. Periodic premiums increased by 1%. Single premiums grew by 4%.

Fee and commission income was up by 5% to EUR 265 million, mainly due to higher income from unit-linked and mortgage businesses, as well as investment solutions for private clients. Turning to our French, German, and international segment that all report in euro. Let me begin with France. Premiums grew by 4% to EUR 5.9 billion. In our life business, premiums increased by 6%. The overall market rose by 9%. Unit-linked share in our life premiums remained at the high level of 66%, compared to the market average of 38%. We generated life net inflows of EUR 1.9 billion. Total market net inflows were at EUR 39.4 billion. Health and protection premiums grew by 1%, driven by price increases. The market increased by 5%. P&C premiums declined by 1%. Fee and commission income rose by 5% to EUR 439 million. Unit-linked fee income grew based on higher average unit-linked reserves.

Income contribution from structured products remained at the pleasing and somehow lower level compared to the very strong prior years. I continue with Germany. Premiums grew by 2% to EUR 1.1 billion, driven by modern, modern traditional, and disability products. The market increased by 9%, driven by higher single premiums. Fee and commission income rose by 5% to EUR 634 million, driven by both a higher productivity at owned IFAs, with a marginally lower number of financial advisors, and by a higher contribution from the insurance business. As a reminder, the prior year fee income included benefits from a specific market opportunity in the context of governmental inflation compensation, amounting to around EUR 25 million. Turning now to international. Premiums increased by 8% to EUR 1.6 billion due to higher premiums with private clients. Premiums from corporate clients slightly decreased. Fee and commission income declined by 1% to EUR 282 million.

Higher income from owned IFAs was more than offset by lower income with corporate clients, in particular from Ellips Life. Let's move on to asset managers, which report in CHF. As usual, in Q1 and Q3, we report on commission income, which does not include other net income from real estate project development. Asset managers' commission income rose by 3% to CHF 719 million. In our PAM business, commission income increased by 1% to CHF 264 million. Higher recurring income was partly offset by lower non-recurring income. In our TPAM business, commission income grew by 4% to CHF 455 million. This was driven by a strong increase of 6% in recurring income due to a higher average asset base. Non-recurring commission income was below the prior year period.

To make figures comparable to half and full year disclosures, the share of total non-recurring income for TPAM, meaning commission income and other net income from real estate project development, was 11% of total TPAM income. This compares to a very high share of 31% in the prior year period. As mentioned at the 2024 Investor Day, we expect to achieve a share of non-recurring TPAM income of, on average, around 25% over the period from 2025 to 2027. For the full year 2025, we confirm to expect this share to be also around 25%, and this expectation is based on progress we have achieved in our project development pipeline. Net new assets in our TPAM business increased to CHF 15 billion, compared to CHF 3.4 billion in the first nine months of 2024.

We saw continuous strong inflows with a share of about 60%, driven by our equity and bond-related index business, similar to what we have seen at half year. Inflows in real assets grew to CHF 1.3 billion. The remainder came from active mandates in bonds, money market, and multi-assets. Assets under management in our TPAM business were at CHF 142 billion, compared to CHF 125 billion at year-end of 2024, driven by the positive net inflows and performance. Turning to our investment result, direct investment income increased by CHF 49 million to CHF 3.13 billion, compared to CHF 3.08 billion in the prior year period, driven by higher income from infrastructure, real estate, and equity investments, which was partly offset by lower income on bonds, including negative FX translation effects. The non-annualized direct investment yield was stable at 2.2%.

As you know, real estate continues to be an attractive and important asset class for backing our long-dated liabilities. We hold real estate because of the irregular rental income it provides and not because of appreciation. Real estate fair value changes were positive at 1.0%. This is a non-annualized figure. For the full year 2025, we expect further positive real estate fair value changes driven by our Swiss real estate portfolio. Vacancy rates remained unchanged at 3.1% compared to year-end 2024. Moving to solvency, capital, and cash. At the end of the third quarter of 2025, the SST ratio was estimated to be around 205%, and therefore at June 2025 level. In Q3, we had positive contributions from equity and real estate market developments and the issuance of CHF 250 million hybrid debt.

This was largely offset by lower interest rates in Switzerland and the widening of interest rate differentials at longer maturities. With a ratio of around 205%, we are well above our ambition range of 140-190%. Liquidity at holding at the end of September 2025 amounted to around CHF 0.85 billion. Our CHF 750 million share buyback is well on track. We repurchased shares worth CHF 466 million as of the 7th of November 2025. The program will run until May 2026. Let me sum up. We are pleased with the performance of Swiss Life in the first nine months of 2025. We expanded both our insurance and fee businesses. Moreover, net new assets in our third-party asset management business were very strong, and finally, our SST ratio also remained at the strong level.

With regard to our Swiss Life 2027 program, we continue to see ourselves to be on track to achieve all of our group financial targets. With this, I hand back to you, Matthias.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Thank you, Marco. We will now open the Q&A session. Who would like to start?

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press Star and 1 on the telephone. You will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered a queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press Star and 2. Questioners on the phone are requested to disable the loudspeaker mode and eventually turn off the volume of the webcast while asking a question. Webcast viewers may submit their questions or comments in writing in the relative field. Kindly note that webcast questions will be answered after the call. Anyone with a question may press Star and 1 at this time. Our first question comes from David Barma from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Good morning. Thanks for taking my questions. Firstly, on the TPAM, please, the fee margin came down a little bit in the third quarter. Can you talk about that, please, and also about your confidence in achieving 25% of non-recurring income for the year? It'd be very helpful if you could share some color on the mix between transactions, project development, revaluations, etc., within that 25%. Secondly, on solvency, it would seem the interest rate differential had a negative impact in Q3, and I think it widened again in Q4 so far. Are you able to give us a rough sensitivity for the impact of that on your SST ratio so that we can better prepare for it, please? Lastly, on France, the fees were really strong in the quarter.

Could you please come back on the comments you made in the opening remarks, Marco, on the sales trend there and how both the structured products and unit-linked sales are faring? Thank you.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Okay. I think Marco will give the answer on the SST and on France, and I will then, in the end, say a couple of words on TPAM.

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: Okay. Good morning, David. Let's start with the question on the French business. As you know, also from earlier reporting, we had very strong inflows in structured products, in particular in the prior year period. We also flagged that to be expected on a still high and pleasing, but rather slower growing level in the current year. Now, in this year's year-to-date development and also in the first nine months, unit-linked was the main contributor to the increase, to the very positive increase in the fee income in France because of new business and also performance on the underlying reserves and structured products, still at, as I said, pleasing level, but rather stable, not growing that much as we have expected.

In terms of the SST, I think here it's important, year-to-date, the interest rate differential, and then now, particularly speaking about the differential between the Swiss franc and the US dollar, has positively tightened and positively impacted our ratio. From half year to Q3, this interest differential widened a bit. That was one of the more negative contributors to our ratio. We do not disclose a very detailed or a detailed sensitivity on that. If you get the sensitivity we disclose, and then the remainder, you might have an idea of those movements also on the ratio. Overall, as I said, market developments in real estate and equities were positive. Also, the hybrid debt helped a bit.

On the other side, the Swiss interest rate, the level of the Swiss interest rate and the differential I just mentioned were on the more negative side, leading them to a stable ratio of around 205%.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: To come back on the question on TPAM, maybe first on the flows and the NNAs. I mean, we confirm what we said in the previous disclosure, stands for the full year 2025. We expect NNAs in the upper teens. This is quite an uptick from the mid-teens that we now have reported. As usual, we say that in view of the pipeline of the business that we have. In terms of, let's say, the composition, I think that's what you were referring to in the numbers that we've reported in the 15 billion year-to-date, around 60% of that relates to index business. This is essentially in equities and bonds. Yes, this has a lower margin than the rest, but we are very happy that we have entered that business.

We are pricing that business at market levels, and for us, it's kind of on-top business that allows us also to see clients we haven't had an offer for previously. You can also see that, by the way, if you compare that with our prior year figures. Now, in terms of the non-recurring income for full year 2025, I think Marco was very clear. We expect around 25% also for the current year. We also again confirm the previously mentioned expectation that we will be there. We do that again, looking at the pipeline, the progress we have achieved. In terms of the rough shift, I mean, we will clearly see quite an increase of the other net income that relates to project development. This, as we also said at half year, will most likely be non-cash. Those will be revaluation gains.

What is also important, now we always talk quite a lot about those non-recurring things, and those are important elements. As we've also mentioned, I mean, the recurring income in TPAM was also increasing by at least 6 percentage points. Hope this has clarified a bit of your questions.

It has, yes. Thank you.

Thank you, David.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: The next question comes from Michael Huettner from Berenberg. Please go ahead.

Fantastic. Thank you. I had three questions. One is just a clarification. You mentioned on NNA flows, high teens versus mid-teens. I do not know what that means. Is it percentage or is it billions or something? I did not understand that. I am sorry. Then on the cash, can you give us a feel for where we might land at the year-end? Because you have got a little bit still of, I mean, the buyback is continuing, so it is clearly. Just to get a feel for, because I seem to remember your target range was to be above CHF 700 million, but this is really old memory. Any help on this would be fantastic. The other question is on the real estate revaluation. Clearly, you are optimistic for the full year.

I was actually hoping, I was a bit greedy, I'm afraid, 1.1% at nine months, and one is a nice figure. I just wondered whether you can give us a feel for where you think we might land at the full year. Thank you.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Thank you, Michael. I clarify on the NNA, the cash goes to Marco, and I can't say a word on the real estate at the end. The NNAs, I was referring to billions. So we had this 15 billion at Q3, and for the full year, we expect a high teen number in billions.

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: On the cash, I mean, as of today, it's CHF 0.85 billion at the holding. Our comfort range, and we talked about that at the investor stage, between CHF 0.5 billion and CHF 0.7 billion. We have now, for the remainder of the year, I mean, the ongoing share buyback, that's a number between CHF 40 million and CHF 45 million each month. There is some fees upstreams coming in, and with that, I think you have an idea of where we might land at the end of the year, which is obviously above our comfort range.

Brilliant. Thank you.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: In terms of.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Sorry. In terms of the fair value change of real estate, I mean, as you said, we had this 1% that we reported year-to-date with the clear driver, the positive contribution from Switzerland. You may recall we had 0.6% in the half year overall. We also report stable valuations for the non-Swiss real estate. What we have seen until now, I think it's fair to say we expect that to continue for the full year.

If I do the math, 0.61, would it be stretching it a little bit to hope for one and a half or?

I wouldn't go into the details of the numbers, but the trend is what we expect to continue.

Brilliant. Thank you.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: The next question comes from Farooq Hanif from J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead.

Hi, everybody. Thank you very much. I really only have one question, which is, could you just talk about the low interest rate environment that we're seeing in Switzerland in particular and how this may impact reserving and cash flow going forward or if it has any impact at all? Thank you very much.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Yeah. That's for Marco. We can confirm what we have said at the investor days and also at the reportings in between. I mean, for us, important is the yield on our portfolio and also the reinvestment rate. We see both well above the levels we would consider to be comfortable for that. We confirm at levels and also the numbers of release we have mentioned at CHF 0.3 billion, to start a bit referring to the group life business where we have the policyholder share. Just to keep that in mind and the reminder, the CHF 0.1 billion is in the individual life. There is also a smaller policyholder share, and it's pre-tax, and that's something we also see to be continued. In essence, no news, so to speak. Thank you.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press the star followed by one. The next question comes from Thomas Bateman from Mediobanca. Please go ahead.

Hi, good morning. I think could you just comment on thank you for the guidance on the 25% non-recurring. How much of that was cash this year? I think you might have given the number, but I missed it. If it is a little bit low on the cash side this year, what does that mean for cash remittance next year from asset managers or maybe even the year after? The second question is just really a follow-up on, I guess, the low interest rate reserve releases. The direct investment income yield is flattening, I would say. I guess we've had two periods of basically it's flat at 1.5% and 2.2% year on year. How would you expect this to develop going forward, I guess, especially given that the mortgage reference rate was cut at the end of last quarter? Thank you.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Thank you. I will start with the direct investment income, and Marco may take the other question on the project development. Now, we have seen, and we rather think about the direct yield in terms of millions. As Marco said, we have seen it increase year over year by CHF 50 million. I think that is something that we are really enjoying to see, that the direct yield has, in millions, the investment income has come up. That is really positive. Going forward with the prospect of this reference rate that now has been lowered twice in Switzerland, we expect a marginal impact from that. There are a couple of things that enter the equation there. For the full year 2026, we expect from this lowering of the reference rate, maybe CHF 10 million net effect of lower rental income.

Please keep in mind, I mean, this effect is then subject to policyholder shareholder sharing as well. So we're not overly concerned about, or we're not concerned at all with this lowering of the reference rates.

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: On the 25% non-recurring and the project development, I mean, basically, we see over time as this project develops and they take many, many years. There are value changes on the way. Once we exit, we sell, then there is the cash flowing in. We, let's say, estimate, rough estimate, this three-quarter being non-cash this year. In terms of cash, I think that's important in the investor day and also in our plan for Switzerland 2027. The targets for asset managers, we took that into consideration. What we've set as a target and what we set there, I mean, that's already incorporated. We are still well on the way to achieve those goals. There is no direct link in between.

Thank you. Just I think you said there was three-quarters non-cash last year as well, and then three-quarters non-cash this year. To me, that feels like you're trending a little bit below kind of the normal run rate, I guess, of looking at the conversion of cash remittances for asset managers. When do you expect that to kind of inflect? Because as you say, over time, they should trend to the same number, right? So have you got any kind of maybe key projects in mind or timelines in mind when those cash remittances will step up again?

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Yeah. I mean, it's fair that in prior years, there were higher shares of cash. Maybe it's a bit lower compared to those years. We always have the overall portfolio in mind. There is quite a number of projects, larger projects, smaller projects. With that in mind, we see over time, there is quite, let's say, an averaging of that. There are always higher numbers, lower numbers, because it depends on the individual project. When we exit, there are even situations when we believe it's not the right moment in time to exit. We take that and, let's say, take the rental income before we exit them at the price we believe is the best offer. There are ups and downs or plus and minuses. I think that's better for averaging over time, depending on the individual project.

That's quite a pipeline and the portfolio behind it that gives us visibility on that.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: The next question comes from Michael Huettner from Berenberg. Please go ahead.

Thank you. I was curious on Germany. The advisor numbers are a little bit lower. Can you tell us a little bit more what's happening there? I think I seem to remember there are two kind of sets of advisors. There's a kind of big pool, and then there's those which are actually converted. It gives you, I think it allows you to see a little bit forward what may be happening. The other question is, you're being so helpful, so I'm kind of pushing my luck a little bit here. On the fees, it was nice. For me, it was a beat nine months, even though the project development, they excluded anyway at nine months. It feels like the unit-linked portion or the kind of asset management portion of it is doing a little bit better than I had hoped.

How do you see that developing over the rest of the year? Can we still be hoping for a fee number of, I think it was 5% or something at the nine months? Thank you.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: I think Marco will take first the question on Germany, and I say a couple of words on the fee income afterwards.

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: On the advisors, I've said it while presenting, we have a marginally lower number of financial advisors. That's the certified part of the overall pool. There are always people coming in, people we recruit, and some leaving the company. Maybe that's a bit the price of our success, that good people are attracted also from other companies. We invest a lot in our services and in recruitment and training and so on. I mean, there is, as I said, some periods where we have more inflows and some where people leaving us a bit more. Now, the third quarter, there was a bit more people leaving us. I think that's the fair point. I would like to point also on the productivity gain.

I mean, the 5% increase in the fee and commission income in Germany, even adjusted then for this situation I mentioned, this opportunity we had last year, it's a 10 percentage point growth, which is quite positive and pleasing in terms of productivity. On the overall pool, you mentioned that number is stable. We are also recruiting, and this is people we train and get to the qualification, and then over time, they become then part of the financial advisor pool. We are working with the management team, is working on it. We are positive on the numbers, on the financial numbers, and also in view of the outlook, just continuing.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: In terms of the fee income, as you said, we have seen now good momentum in the unit-linked business, specifically in France. We continue to attract funds there. We have net inflows. Without giving detailed numbers, you know us, Mike. I mean, we clearly see, as we speak, good business dynamics. Also, what I said in the beginning, that we have seen the recurring fee income grow by 6%. I mean, that's a good basis to go into the last quarter. We have seen these high levels of AUMs, both in the unit-linked business and the asset management. That gives us, let's say, good visibility on the fee income from those businesses in the last quarter.

May I just ask, would you have, I'm really putting it here, you mentioned visibility, a kind of update on the NNA?

No, but we confirm that we will get in the fee into the upper teens in billions.

Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much. Thank you.

You're welcome, Michael.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: The next question comes from Ahmed Nazib from UBS. Please go ahead.

Hi, morning. Sorry, just one question for me. Can you give a sense of the exposure to CLO, CDOs, unsecured lending within PAM and TPAM? Thank you.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: We're just not sure whether we have heard you. It was the CLOs and what was the other?

Working capital finance and unsecured lending.

Maybe I'm now guessing what your question was. You had some noise in the background. What we have is no CLOs. We have no collateralized loan obligations. What we have is senior secured loans, but this is in our understanding something different. Not sure whether that was your question.

Yeah, no. Working Capital Finance was the other part of the question. Can you hear me okay now?

I mean, either you come back with your question after the call because you have some noise, or we cannot hear you.

Okay, no worries. Thanks.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: We have a follow-up question from Thomas Bateman from Mediobanca. Please go ahead.

Hi, thanks for taking my question. Just I remember in the past, there's been kind of regulatory changes, tax changes, big campaigns that you've run that have been quite successful in various jurisdictions. I was just wondering if there were any that you wanted to highlight. I don't know which countries that might apply to, but any that are on your horizon over the next 12 months?

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Regulatory changes, we talked about things in France at half-year. There is nothing new there compared to what we said in the half-year, I believe. Other than that, I would not be aware of anything relevant to mention here.

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: No, I think there's always some changes, regulatory changes, but more from an operational point of view, requirements in the area of risk management and technology and so on, but not related to the business.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Okay, thank you.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: We have another follow-up question from Michael Huettner from Berenberg. Please go ahead.

From Mr. Lasser. Two questions. One on credit risk and the other one on growth in total assets, the balance sheet, I guess. On credit risk, can you say whether you've had exposure to the things which have happened in the U.S.? If so, maybe kind of give a feeling for it. The second, in total assets, I remember the half-year they were down, and I was really disappointed. I'd like everything to go up. Can you give a feel for what's happened? I think that total assets, what I mean, is the investment assets on the balance sheet. The reason I like that number is I like your real estate. Of course, if the total number shrinks, then the real estate also shrinks. I think, well, that's a bit of a challenge.

I just wondered if you could give a feel for what's happening there. Thank you.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Maybe on credit rates, I'm not sure what you're referring to, but we didn't have.

You know the two things which happened, First Brands and Trikona? The question really is, I've asked every company so far which has reported, so I'm not singling you out in any particular way, but it's certainly something on the investor's mind.

No, we don't have any exposure to that. On the total assets on the balance sheet, you probably refer to the half-year numbers where we show the insurance portfolio for own risk that has come down. That is relating, I would say, to interest rate movements. Year to date, until half-year, interest rates went up, and that's what I would say was the driver for that reduction.

Brilliant. There is no okay, so it was not due to net outflows at the half-year or anything?

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: No, no net outflows. As a fact, I think we also talked about that in half-year, there is how to account for cash in view of REPOs and collaterals that also contributed to those movements you're just mentioning. That is more, let's say, an accounting topic, has nothing to do with real flows, so to say.

Excellent. Okay. Thank you.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: The last question for today's call comes from Farooq Hanif from J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead.

Hi. I just wanted to follow up, actually, on Nasib's question because I think it was quite interesting. I think what he was asking was whether you have exposure to working capital finance. I think you kind of answered that. Also, unsecured private lending, can you give a number? You do not have CLOs, but can you give us a number for your exposure to unsecured private lending to corporates? Thank you.

Marco Gerussi, Group CFO, Swiss Life: I mean, still not sure if I understood the question correctly, but we don't have any of those exposures on our balance sheet.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: The private credit we do is through senior secured loans. I mean, that's for us very important. I mean, if we go into that market, we do it via secured loans and not these unsecured loans. We're just not an expert in that field of private unsecured markets. The number we have for the senior secured loans is around CHF 5 billion on the balance sheet. Again, this is secured.

That's very clear. Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's Q&A session. I would like to turn the conference back over to Matthias Aellig for any closing remarks.

Matthias Aellig, Group CEO, Swiss Life: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for your questions and for joining us today. Before we close the call, let me recap. In the first nine months of 2025, we continued on our growth path and increased the top line in both insurance and fee businesses. We are making good progress and are on track with the implementation of our Swiss Life 2027 program. We are highly committed to execute the program with discipline and to deliver on our promises. Thank you again, and I wish you a nice day. Goodbye.

Sandra, Call Operator, Swiss Life: Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now over. Thank you for choosing CorusCall, and thank you for participating in the conference. You may now disconnect your lines. Goodbye.

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