Paymentus at JPMorgan Conference: Strategic Growth in Bill Payments

On Tuesday, 13 May 2025, Paymentus Holdings Inc (NYSE:PAY) presented at the 53rd Annual JPMorgan Global Technology, Media and Communications Conference. The company outlined its strategic focus on expanding its market share in the non-discretionary bill payment sector while addressing challenges such as interchange fees. Despite economic uncertainties, Paymentus remains optimistic about its growth prospects, driven by strong transaction volumes and a robust pipeline.

Key Takeaways

• Paymentus processed over 170 million transactions in Q1 2024 and nearly 600 million in FY 2023.
• The company aims for 20% revenue growth and an EBITDA margin of 20% to 30%.
• Paymentus holds a 4% share of the US bill payment market, with ambitions to expand.
• Automation and digital channel utilization are key operational focuses.
• New payment methods are seen as opportunities to improve financial terms.

Financial Results

• Q1 2024 saw Paymentus processing over 170 million transactions.
• For FY 2023, the company processed nearly 600 million transactions.
• Paymentus targets a 20% top-line growth and an EBITDA margin between 20% and 30%.
• The company achieved a record adjusted EBITDA margin of 34.2% in Q1.
• Paymentus is committed to cash generation and conversion from EBITDA.

Operational Updates

• Approximately 50% of Paymentus’ business comes from essential services such as electricity, gas, and water.
• The company has invested heavily in automation to streamline implementation processes.
• Efforts are underway to reduce implementation time and cost for clients.
• Paymentus is focused on improving digital channel utilization and enhancing customer satisfaction.
• The company is exploring expanding services like payouts.

Future Outlook

• Paymentus aims to capture a larger share of the multi-trillion dollar bill payment market.
• The company is exploring ways to convert interchange expenses into a revenue source.
• New service offerings, including money out and payout transactions, are being considered.
• Platform improvements are ongoing to enhance user experience and serve more verticals.
• Paymentus continues to target both direct sales and partner channels.

Q&A Highlights

• Paymentus is optimistic about growth across all customer verticals.
• The company maintains a balanced approach between direct sales and partner channels.
• Interchange fees remain a focus, with efforts to partner with customers to reduce costs.
• New implementations are a significant growth vector, supported by strong bookings and pipeline conversion.
• The total addressable market is vast, with around 16-17 billion bills in the US.

For further details, readers are encouraged to refer to the full conference call transcript.

Full transcript - 53rd Annual JPMorgan Global Technology, Media and Communications Conference:

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Alright. Let’s get started. My name is Tien Tsin Huang. I follow payments and IT services at JPMorgan, and this is the Paymentus fireside chat. We’re happy to take questions at the end and also through the through the portal.

But thank you to the Paymentus team for being here. Dushant Sharma, CEO Sanjay Kahara, CFO. Again, thank you both for for being here. I I always say like, Dushant, what you founded Paymentus of what, 02/2004, is that what you’re Is

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: that Yes.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: So you you’ve seen a lot from a bill pay perspective, but let’s not forget you founded Derivion and sold that as well to Medavante, and we’ve seen some some consolidation recently. So I do wanna talk about the chessboard and and how you’re seeing it changing. But, you know, you just reported not too too long ago. Maybe for those newer to the story, just a quick commercial on on Paymentus and and the trends that that you’re seeing and and what you’re doubling down on strategically.

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Sure. First of all, thank you so much for having it. It’s a real pleasure. So we’re actually, in some ways, find ourselves in a very fortunate situation where we are serving the non discretionary side of The US economy. We are a cloud based technology platform for bill payment bill payments.

We are disrupting the bill payment space by digitizing and modernizing bill payment experiences for clients of ours in various industries like utilities, insurance, government services, property management, all the other recurring billing space. We are pretty sizable actually. If you think about we processed over 170,000,000 transactions last quarter. Last year we did over six or close to 600,000,000 transactions. So quite a lot of households and businesses we are already interacting with.

So we feel we feel great about where we are and where we’re headed.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: So you you have had a series of of of big beats and and raises. You seem to be fairly insulated from from the macro and some of the uncertainty out there. So just remind us, you mentioned non discretionary. We do rank you very highly in terms of the non discretionary mix relative to our broader coverage. What does that mean for you and visibility and whatnot before we dig into the details?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Sure. So if you take a step back, and that’s one of the things we wanted to accomplish on the earnings call to make sure our investors have a pretty good understanding of who we are serving and how insulated, relatively insulated we are as a business. So if you think about to just to be able to cook your food, need in a typical household, you need electricity, gas, and water. And that covers almost 50% of our business. And if you go further than that, you have telephones, you have mortgage, you have rent, you have insurance premiums to pay if you want to maintain coverage.

So we feel like that we are serving a pretty essential side of the economy. Mhmm. And even during past macroeconomic events, we continue to grow our business. We saw people continue to pay their bills. And the trends we are seeing right now, we were Q1 was all about making sure that we are observing all the trends all across our verticals.

We haven’t seen any slowdown of any kind. And so in fact, we are seeing encouraging trends. And from the bookings, from pipeline to bookings to then conversion of bookings to revenue to continue to see the same store sales and encouraging trends there as well. So we feel like all aspects of our business, we are feeling good about and visibility remains strong.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: When you think of on the monetization front, Dushan, just or or Sanjay, just thinking of the convenience fee versus the absorbed fee and given what you just described on how nondiscretion is yet the benefits of of automation and and epay and whatnot. Any interesting observations there in terms of how you monetize?

Sanjay Kahara, CFO, Paymentus: Well, we monetize using both approaches as you said convenience as well as absorb. And it depends on kind of the relationship kind of the position the biller prefers to and we give flexibility as we do the deal. But they are not distinguished in a way that they kind of impact our profitability. Both are different methods to pay and whatever makes sense more to the biller we do it and both are working well.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Yeah. So throughout the earnings season and also early in the tech conference here, we always ask around implementations, timing and is the backlog converting in a timely way or not. I’m curious for both the backlog and the pipeline, how strategic of a priority is it for billers to modernize their bill pay and consolidate onto Paymentus? How does that rank? What are you seeing on timeline?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Sure. First of all, we continue to be encouraged with all the trends we are seeing, but I will go to the actual point here. Something I feel like that we we don’t put two and two together. Bill payments is about actually revenue. As much as it is if you look at it from a consumer standpoint, it is about receiving the services which are essential.

But from a supplier standpoint or the billing company’s standpoint, the biller’s standpoint, it is actually the lifeline. So if you’re not collecting payments on time, you don’t have the ability to pay for the next month your payroll. Right. Or or purchase more electricity or pay your suppliers. So it is very important to all the businesses, especially those which are serving millions of or or lot of relative to the size of the business and number of subscribers they’re dealing with.

It’s very important that they’re able to collect, collect in time, collect with efficiency and not spending a lot of money, collect in a way that they’re not having to answer a whole bunch of phone calls, and collect in a way that they can continue to provide better experiences for their customers. So if you think from those priorities perspective, we believe that CFOs and customer service executives, experienced executives, they all become extremely friendly towards Paymenta’s value proposition. And many times for us, we are just simply saying that we want CFOs to be the biggest champions of our our business. Mhmm. Not the ones who are challenging the the the value proposition.

And as a result, regardless of the season we are in, economic cycle we are in, we continue to see positive trends because it is all about revenue collection, is very important to CFO. And it’s all about making sure the customers when they’re interacting and engaging with the company, they continue to have better experience. So from that perspective, it’s a very important aspect to the business. It’s all about revenues. It’s bringing the money in the door.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Right. Yeah. Because I think sometimes, know, us included make that mistake. Right? Thinking about it as an expense, the cost of goods sold, but the revenue collection, of course, is is critically important.

Quick just the other another one I wanna hit before we go into some more detail. Just there’s a lot of new payment methods emerging. I know credit, debit, of course, matter, but given new APMs and the macro shifts that are happening, is there any shift in preferences that you’re seeing that has some impact on your take rate that that we need to consider? I know we learned from that in the summer months with utilities and things like that. How about now given where we are with uncertainty in macro?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: I think we first of all, having more payment options for our customers at WelcomeSign, and frankly, getting more and more alternative and advanced payment methods in our network is an opportunity to negotiate better deals.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: I see.

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: So for us, we are like looking at for from our standpoint, interchange all of our cost of goods sold, which is primarily centered around interchange, is a vendor expense. And we as a company have always looked at it that way. We increasingly look at it that way. And now as we are looking at more and more payment options emerging, we start to think about how do we negotiate better deals, how do we make sure our take rate continues to improve as we continue to scale the business.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Okay. So back to bookings and and you you go you went through very clearly what the strategic benefits are. Who are you taking share from? Like, what was the decision to to move to to Pimantas? Is there an incumbent that they’re not happy with?

Is this an old antiquated system that’s being replaced? What’s moving today?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: I think it is the the number one driver for change is the level of sophistication of the buyer is changing. So what used to happen before was, if you go back even ten, fifteen years ago, if you didn’t have web payments or mobile payment, that could be the entree. That well, we can provide you a mobile app or we can give you that kind of experience and so on. And a lot of legacy infrastructure got created as a result of that.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Yeah.

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: So the point solutions and so on. Right now what’s happening is the buyer is sophisticated. They have heard the stories, they have seen all the things, and they have seen that electronic payment or digital payment could be more expensive if it is not handled well than even the paper payment. So a lot of times it’s very important for them to make sure that they are thinking through all the areas of improvement as they are bringing a new provider. In our case, what’s working extremely well is that we have no we are no longer targeting legacy providers per se.

We are simply saying everything is legacy infrastructure and can that be modernized? And can that be modernized in a way that both CFO and rest of the executive team are happy, but CFO being a very important part of the equation. So can we actually lower the cost to serve without lowering the transaction fee, which we will be collecting? And what we are seeing is many times you’re doing deals where customers are actually paying us a little bit more than what they were used to paying or spending on the transaction fee. But because of the completeness of the solution, we are able to garner more support internally because of the savings they will recognize elsewhere.

So that’s sort of what is driving the change comes comes down to these two simple value proposition that improve experience and cost lower cost to serve. But to your point about what we are replacing, it is really the legacy infrastructure in house and legacy providers.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: And then the cost to change and to make that switch, is that conversation changing? I know for several quarters, if not years now, you’ve talked about automating it and Yeah. And improving the timeline to go live and and switching. Is that less of a gating factor for for switching?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Actually, it’s a real it’s a strong gating factor even today. Sure. Like, every every customer wants to know what will the life would be the moment I signed the agreement? How long it will take me to get live with paymentors? How much efforts it will take?

And how much time? And then on top of that, the cost and so on. And then what will be what it will be like the day after. Right? What is helping us tremendously is that there is all the investment we have made in automation.

But also, we have made it a point to communicate very publicly that we are seeing tremendous success. We’re able to even the large enterprise clients who are having big in in house systems, they have moved to Paymentus and they’ve gone live sooner than we were thinking and they’re outperforming. Our expectations basically, the combined expectations in many cases. So what that all translates to is a great sales collateral. So if you’re the new clients are looking at Paymentus, they’re hearing very publicly that Paymentus is doing whatever their biggest concerns were.

That’s what Paymentus is already addressing and very publicly so. And then when they’re little bit under the cover, they realize that Paymentus has done a lot of work in automating and being able to implement these large multi dimensional conversions without having to while keeping majority, if not all of the interfaces of our customers identical. So we do all the work on our side and we do all that through automation. So that’s what is driving some of that apprehension away.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Okay. So can we can we discuss the you mentioned it, right? The day after you implement and the outperformance. What what can a biller typically see in terms of e payment performance and maybe disputes and, you know, I don’t know if there’s a way to measure customer sat on on bill pay. But what what do you typically see and how has that changed versus say a year ago when I asked you the same question?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Yeah, I think what we are seeing is that we’re increasingly becoming more focused on making sure that not only utilization improves of digital channels, meaning more and more customers should use digital channels for payments. In addition to that, even the customers who are used to using the system, are they able to get faster response times? The average handling time is lower. The number of calls to the call center are lower. So all of that stuff, when we put it together, I think customers are generally very pleased with like we have stats where customer will go live and they will see significant jump.

And we are reporting that. Our model for some of these large enterprise clients was certain numbers. And we were thinking it was seasonality and we are still not certain until we have the whole year. It looks like that based on the performance and the reach and the simplicity and all the investments we have been making to make the experience simpler, shorter, and better for the end users and the staff for the companies we are serving. It is paying off in some ways.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Okay. And I think you mentioned it. I think Sanjay you’ve also said, right, that when people ask about conservatism in the outlook and the go forward quarter, that kind of thing. I think that’s something that Dushan said, that you’re not ready to call a trend until you see a full year’s worth of pillar volume. Is that accurate?

And you think about forecasting and the outlook that you said?

Sanjay Kahara, CFO, Paymentus: Yes, that is. So for all the enterprise clients, especially the ones which we onboarded in Q3 of last year, we want to see at least four quarters of the runway. And based on that, we would rather like to forecast and that’s exactly what we did in our guidance when we gave in the previous call for Q2. We did not anticipate the same kind of growth we saw in Q1 and Q4, Q4 of last year and Q1 of this year because those were exceeding our expectations. And we are unable to figure out is that the seasonality which they had in these two quarters or is that the consistent trend we should see.

So taking prudent approach is more reasonable given all what’s going on and we just want to keep our head straight and keep on executing rather than building an expectation and then without having a history of that, I think that will be more aggressive. So and being prudent never hurts and that has been proven philosophy I would think on our approach. Okay. So we wanna march on that path.

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Yeah. And I will also simply say that we have a bias obviously and we have a desired outcome we are seeking there. We want this to be the victory for the platform. But it’s very hard to call that without seeing all the trends. And clients are sometimes not very open to telling you exactly whether that’s seasonality or that’s based on platform outperforming.

Just because they might be also very pleasantly surprised. They’re not they’re not sure whether that will be same trends will continue.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Okay. That’s fair. So building up in the NRR point of everything we just talked about, same store new sales implementations, outperformance in the backlog growing through the consumer usage etcetera. How does that typically build up in your mind?

Sanjay Kahara, CFO, Paymentus: Yeah, so NRR when we look at NRR is mainly same store sales. And because NRR does not capture any new implementations. But NRR is I would say primarily same store sales. There is a modest portion of pricing component also, but that’s not as big. But when we look at our total growth vectors apart from same store sales and the pricing change, the biggest growth vector for the company is I would say since last eight, nine quarters has been the new

Sanjay Kahara, CFO, Paymentus: implementations. Because

Sanjay Kahara, CFO, Paymentus: our bookings are very strong and our implementation machinery is running at a good great pace. So as the time comes for implementation, the new implementations go live, they are the biggest contributors to our growth. And that’s consistent and that has been the most rewarding aspect I think of our business because bookings are strong because pipeline is strong and pipeline is getting converted to bookings at a great pace as well. So all right from the TAM, I would say, which is enormous, which is like around 16,000,000,000, 17 billion bills and we have only 4% share of that in The U. S.

We have a huge runway there. And together with the TAM going to the pipeline, bookings and implementation, everything is moving in the right direction at a great pace.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Okay. Any questions before I keep going?

Unidentified speaker: Customer vertical. I was curious if there’s a specific customer vertical you’re excited about where you’re seeing more growth or where within that TAM you’re most excited.

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: So we are actually it may sound like a little bit of a cliche, but we are excited about all of the verticals. We did the analysis earlier in the quarter in the Q1 and seeing how well we have done across all verticals versus year over versus last year. We are very pleased. If you think about it, our utility business has which is our bread and butter business has been the core DNA of the company right from the beginning, but that has continued to scale extremely well, continues to grow. But the other verticals, non utility verticals, which we talk very much about, they continue to grow, continue to accelerate.

Very, very pleased with how well we have been successful in manifesting sort of the destiny we always visualize by our technology platform, that no vertical should be too far for Paymentus, or no size of the customer should be too large or too small for us. So we have been able to prove all of that actually. Right now we have verticals. We have teams and we have partners who are focused on verticals, not named utility, and they’re driving tremendous growth in there. So we remain very excited.

And one of the philosophies we have had over the years is we never believed because of watching and Tien Tsin, you have been in this space and you know that once you’ve been watching the trends for years and years, you realize that, well, are 120,000,000 households in The US, but there are sixteen, seventeen billion bills. So one household is getting more than a few number of bills, right? Meaning customers eventually they are not going to be the end user payers are not gonna make that much of a difference between my insurance bill versus my utility bill versus my car payment and so on. They want a similar unified experience. And based on if you follow that philosophy and go all the way down to the back end, then the buyers of our services are also consumers because they’re also paying bills.

They’re also desirous of the same thing. When Paymentus goes with the model that our platform is unique because it is purpose built for all verticals, and we have crowd sourced the functionality from all of the verticals and so on. And as a result, the platform itself is so much more matured and sophisticated that it meets the requirements for all of the customers. So when our clients, prospective clients hear that and then they hear, oh really, that company signed with you? So okay, we’ll want to call them.

So you we are our approach works. We get some beachheads, and then from there, grow the business with great storytellers.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Good question. Anyone else? Yeah, we’ll take one. I did have a quick follow-up to that, but go ahead, Andrew. Thank you.

Unidentified speaker: I wanted to ask within the go to market, you talked about the importance of direct sales, but also the partner channel, because partners have been an important part of Himintas’ growth story. So just wanted to hear how you balance the two. And maybe what’s the optimal mix of sales coming from each channel?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Actually, this has been in some ways the what you’re the unlocking of the growth algorithm, what you’re seeing in the recent past is has a lot to do with Paymentus actually figuring out we we all work together. We try to figure out how can we make it somehow financially agnostic, whether we get a deal directly versus we get a deal through our partners. And we are pretty much at that stage right now. So profitability of a given deal is very similar to Paymentus due to operating leverage as well as how our sales model works. So therefore, there’s no extra incentive or disincentive to do a deal one way or the other.

That’s one. The second is our direct sales channel is so strong and tied with the entirety of the business that it becomes almost like a life cycle learning of the entire customer journey, and then propagating that to our partner channel, and our partners getting benefit of that leads to better sales productivity. A lot of times, as we all know, partnerships don’t work out as well because they’re sort of great paper, great advertisement, but not as much productivity. We are seeing the opposite of that. We are seeing a lot of productive partnerships and partners getting excited.

Don’t think there is any competitive tension between Paymentus, the way we have built the culture and the way, provably we are seeing that financially the numbers are very similar.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Is there a temptation? I know you’re way through the rule of 40 and all this stuff and margins have been good. Is there a temptation to push harder on the direct selling front given the momentum you have and some of the success you’ve seen in the pipeline conversion?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Always. We are always focused on that, but not at the expense of affecting our profitability. So we’re is we are we remain and Sanjay, you’re welcome to comment on it. But we are we are so focused on profitable profitable growth. There are two parts to it.

One is that investors need to know that this management team knows how to think of profitability when we are not in front of investors. When we are delivering results, they’re thinking about that we can deliver profitable growth. The second is I think as a management team, it’s a challenge. It’s very easy to go ahead and go to the board and go to your investors and say, you know what, are going to bring our EBITDA by certain points, bring down our EBITDA by certain points, and now we’re gonna grow the business and so on. I think it’s a tougher challenge as a management team from a go to market strategy perspective and creativity therein.

Can we actually not do that and still grow the business? And can we still accelerate the business? What could we do to our product? What could we do to our implementation process and so on, which will allow us to do that? So we will continue to challenge us on that.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Yeah, no I give you credit. As a public company you found a good rhythm on balancing the growth and the profitability. I think that’s definitely worth commenting on.

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: Thank you.

Sanjay Kahara, CFO, Paymentus: Different segments, and is there anything special about the mix of the business coming from different segments?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: No. We are seeing very, you know, as Sanjay has rightly pointed out on earnings call that we have some large clients who actually have a different size of the ticket and so on, which affects the actual per unit, how much revenue we’re generating, but margin profile is very similar. Sanjay, you want to add?

Sanjay Kahara, CFO, Paymentus: Yeah. When we look at whether it’s a large customer or a small customer or any one vertical or two verticals, we don’t distinguish them separately compared to our overall business. Our goal is that overall Paymentus is moving in a direction with a corporate goal of growing top line 20% and showing EBITDA 20% to 30%. And we very well know our operating leverage is very high. So when we price the deal, we don’t look at that deal itself, but rather the whole company and how that’s contributing to the company.

So when we go into the per transaction matrix, that actually is an output of the whole product and the whole cycle rather than an input. So revenue per transaction may fluctuate, interchange or cost per transaction may fluctuate, but contribution profit per transaction is kind of similar despite of growing so significantly. So what we are doing is we are getting the benefit of scale without compromising the profitability, and that’s helping us grow the profitability overall. Like Q1 for example was a record adjusted EBITDA margin for us 34.2 and that new record is created. Together with that, we created one more record.

Our cash generation was huge this quarter. So we have a lot of focus on cash as well. I mean, together with profitability, we wanna see that is eventually converting to cash sitting on the balance sheet. So we are not focusing on any one particular metric for a customer, but looking at overall picture.

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: And if I may actually add, it’s it’s a very positive thing even for clients to see that Paymentus is a well run profitable business, is generating cash because that’s how they run their businesses. We are dealing with companies which are very, in many cases, even though smaller end market for us is still a large enterprise. They might be dealing with 50,000 subscribers, and if you multiply that by $200, this is a sizable business. So they run their businesses very profitably and profitability matters to them as well.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Anyone else? So, Dushyant, I did want to make sure I’m glad we have some time. I want to ask about, we touched upon it briefly last year. Just just this opportunity to turn interchange from a cost into into revenue. You’ve discussed it as a TAM expansion opportunity.

We’ve seen different players in the ecosystem, especially marketplaces, fintechs that are trying to tap into their merchant network, connect them, and and do bill payments or or directory. And it feels like you can do that with large enterprises. You’re doing the cash money movement anyway. So where are you in that? How big of a priority is that?

And does it make sense for you to go faster and and do more on the accounts payable side since you have the the merchant network already or the biller network already?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: I think very interesting point there. Let me touch the first one for the interchange, then I’ll go to the merchant directly and the payouts and some of those capabilities. But in terms of the interchange itself, if you think about from Paymentus’ point of view, we always looked at interchange as a vendor expense. Right. And we said, what can we do to improve?

Just like any other business, what can we do? And while we have great partnership with all the card networks and so on, but ultimately interchange is a big expense for us. Right now the key priority for us as a business is to make sure we continue to have as much growth as possible, build as much or capture as much market as possible. Even though, as you know, it’s a multi trillion dollar market and we have captured only a fraction of that, 3% or 4%, right now under 4% of the market. So goal is to capture as much market as we can.

Longer term, what I mean by that is not this year or next year is longer than that, is we are working through what are the different parameters we will need to or the dials we will need to turn to convert the interchange from a cost center to revenue center. And which actually is getting very exciting as we start to take a look at that and it becomes a tremendous multiplier actually. Profitability and the retention rates of all the which we already have pretty high, but it becomes pretty interesting. Not yet able to go into all the details of it, but at the high level I could say it is a combination of partnerships, a combination of different payment methods and so on, combination of some products and services as well, which we are thinking about. And then it also is a combination of being able to do money out and some payout transactions.

For everyone’s benefit, if you think about Paymentus today, we talked about the number of transactions we process like last year close to 600,000,000 transactions. If you just take a step back and ask, well, how many households does that represent? How many businesses does that represent of United States? The number is pretty pretty big. So Paymentus in in addition to building a great business in in disrupting bill payment, Paymentus is also building a great distribution network for future products and services to be distributed to all these participants in our network.

So we have that ability and that that’s a big focus for us. But not necessarily the expense run rate is in our numbers, but not the revenue and anything generated yet from. So that will come in the future.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Okay, good. Let’s do one last question. Thinking about your conversation back to interchange fees and how you view that

Unidentified speaker: as a customer cost more than your cost to you, Has your customers come back to you and ask you for more of a emphasis on pay by bank to lower their fees on their end?

Dushant Sharma, CEO, Paymentus: They do. Actually, it’s a big piece to customers as well. And that’s why when Tien Tsin was asking earlier the question about convenience fee versus absorbed, how many billers absorb the fee and convenience fee. So we are in many ways, are agnostic, whatever the client decides, whatever they want to do. Interchange is a big big expense for everyone.

For paymentors, the way we think about it is that our clients and paymentors are partners in this together. Because both of us, whether it’s paymentors is paying it or customer is paying it, it is getting paid. And it’s a it’s a still a big expense. So longer term when we solve that puzzle, it benefits both us and the client. More so paymentless of course because majority of our revenue we are collecting from our clients is going to the interchange.

So we get tremendous benefit from that, but also our clients as well. There’ll be more options for them.

Tien Tsin Huang, Analyst, JPMorgan: Good question. All right, we should probably close it out there. Thank you, Dushyana. Thank you, Sanjay for being

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