Earnings call transcript: Howard Hughes beats Q3 2025 EPS estimates

Howard Hughes Holdings (HHH) reported a strong third-quarter performance, significantly surpassing earnings per share (EPS) expectations. The company announced an EPS of $2.02, well above the forecasted $1.20, marking a 68.33% surprise. Revenue came in slightly below expectations at $360.59 million, compared to the forecast of $360.70 million. Following the earnings announcement, HHH shares rose 8.67%, reflecting investor optimism.

Key Takeaways

• Howard Hughes reported a significant EPS beat for Q3 2025.
• The company's stock surged by 8.67% in pre-market trading.
• Full-year EBT guidance was raised by $20 million.
• Strong performance in the master-planned community (MPC) segment.
• Continued expansion in condo and multifamily developments.

Company Performance

Howard Hughes Holdings demonstrated robust performance in Q3 2025, particularly in its master-planned community segment, which achieved a record $205 million in earnings before taxes (EBT). The company’s strategic initiatives in real estate development and land sales have contributed to its competitive edge, allowing it to maintain strong pricing power despite broader market challenges.

Financial Highlights

• Revenue: $360.59 million, slightly below forecast.
• Earnings per share: $2.02, exceeding expectations by 68.33%.
• Operating assets net operating income (NOI) increased by 5% year-over-year to $68 million.

Earnings vs. Forecast

Howard Hughes reported an EPS of $2.02, significantly beating the forecast of $1.20. This represents a 68.33% positive surprise, indicating strong operational performance and cost management. Revenue was slightly under the forecast, but the minor shortfall did not deter investor confidence.

Market Reaction

Following the earnings announcement, Howard Hughes' stock price increased by 8.67%, reaching $81.80 in pre-market trading. This surge reflects positive investor sentiment, driven by the company's robust EPS performance and strategic growth in its real estate segments. The stock remains below its 52-week high of $87.77 but has shown resilience in a challenging market environment.

Outlook & Guidance

Howard Hughes has raised its full-year EBT guidance to $450 million, an increase of $20 million, and adjusted its operating cash flow guidance to $440 million. The company plans to continue reinvesting cash into community developments and is exploring additional condo project sites in The Woodlands and Summerlin.

Executive Commentary

CEO David O'Reilly emphasized the company's strategic advantage, stating, "Our perpetual cycle of value creation and self-funding model, combined with limited competition, continues to give us a major edge." Executive Chairman Bill Ackman highlighted the potential of the insurance business, noting, "The beauty of insurance business is insurance generates a lot of cash."

Risks and Challenges

• Potential market saturation in real estate developments.
• Macroeconomic pressures affecting consumer spending and housing demand.
• Supply chain disruptions impacting construction timelines.
• Interest rate fluctuations affecting real estate financing.
• Competitive pressures in the real estate market.

Q&A

During the earnings call, analysts inquired about Howard Hughes' strategic land sales approach and the performance of the Ritz-Carlton Residences in The Woodlands. The company also discussed its potential insurance company acquisition strategy, which could further enhance its cash flow and investment capabilities.

Full transcript - Howard Hughes Holdings Inc (HHH) Q3 2025:

Conference Operator: Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Howard Hughes third quarter 2025 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. To ask a question during the session, you will need to press star 11 on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question, please press star 11 again. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Joe Valane, General Counsel. Please go ahead.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Good morning, and welcome to the Howard Hughes Holdings Third Quarter 2025 earnings call. With me today are Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman; David O'Reilly, Chief Executive Officer; Ryan Israel, Chief Investment Officer; and Carlos Olea, Chief Financial Officer. Before we begin, I would like to direct you to our website, www.howardhughes.com, where you can download both our Third Quarter earnings press release and our supplemental package. The earnings release and supplemental package include reconciliations of non-GAAP financial measures that will be discussed today in relation to their most directly comparable GAAP financial measures. Certain statements made today that are not in the present tense or that discuss the company's expectations are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws. Although the company believes that the expectations reflected in such forward-looking statements are based upon reasonable assumptions, we can give no assurance that these expectations will be achieved.

Please see the forward-looking statement disclaimer in our Third Quarter earnings press release and the risk factors in our SEC filings for factors that could cause material differences between forward-looking statements and actual results. We are not under any duty to update forward-looking statements unless required by law. I will now turn the call over to our CEO, David O'Reilly.

David O'Reilly, Chief Executive Officer, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thanks, Joe, and good morning, everyone. I'm going to start with a quick overview of the quarter and some highlights for Howard Hughes communities. Carlos will walk through guidance in our cash flow outlook before handing it over to Bill and Ryan to share updates on our holding company strategy. We delivered another strong quarter across every business segment, underscoring the strength of our real estate platform and the value of our transformation into a diversified holding company. Starting with our MPC segment, we had a record quarter generating $205 million EBT, driven by strong land sales in Summerlin. We sold 319 acres at roughly $795,000 an acre. That included a single 231-acre bulk sale of raw undeveloped land sold at a 75% margin, but below our average price per acre since it required no upfront infrastructure.

Excluding that one transaction, the rest of our land averaged about $1.7 million per acre. We earned more than $14.5 million in builder price participation, reflecting continued home price growth in Summerlin. In Bridgeland, land sales remain steady, and we're gearing up for the grand opening of Terra Vallis in Phoenix later this month. Model homes are open, builders are active, and momentum is strong at Florio. While broader national headlines point to slower home sales, we're once again seeing the opposite in our communities, delivering strong results to counter current headlines. Our perpetual cycle of value creation and self-funding model, combined with limited competition, continues to give us a major edge. As a result, we expect to finish the year with record-high residential land sales, record pricing, and a record full-year MPC EBT. Given this performance, we're once again raising our full-year MPC guidance.

Moving to operating assets, NOI grew 5% year-over-year to $68 million, driven by leasing momentum across the portfolio. Office NOI was up 7% thanks to strong activity in Columbia and the expiration of some large abatements. We signed 55,000 sq ft of new or expanded office leases, and the stabilized office portfolio ended the quarter at 89% leased. Multifamily NOI grew 2% as new projects in Summerlin and Bridgeland continued leasing ahead of plan. Our stabilized multifamily portfolio is now 96% leased. Retail NOI was up 9% year-over-year, led by great performance at Ward Village and Merriweather District. Our stabilized retail portfolio remains above 90% leased. Turning to strategic developments, we reached a new record with $1.4 billion in condo pre-sales, led by Malia and Alima, our 12th and 13th towers at Ward Village. Both are off to an incredible start and already collectively 57% pre-sold.

The Lanue in Ward Village and the Ritz-Carlton Residences in The Woodlands are now 68% and 74% pre-sold, respectively. Beyond condo sales, we broke ground on the Memorial Hermann Medical Office Building in Bridgeland, the first step in what we expect will become a 1 million sq ft medical district. Right after quarter end, we completed One Riva Row, a 268-unit luxury multifamily property along The Woodlands Waterway. That project sets a new bar for multifamily living in the area and will meaningfully contribute to NOI once stabilized. What's most exciting is how the cash flow generated across our communities is reinvested right back into value-creating developments. Projects like Alima and Malia at Ward Village or One Riva Row in The Woodlands, each one is a perfect example of how we recycle capital to grow both future cash flows and long-term net asset value across our portfolio.

It's been a busy and rewarding quarter across Howard Hughes communities, and I couldn't be prouder of how our teams continue to execute. With that, I'll hand it over to Carlos.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thanks, David, and good morning, everyone. I'll start with the recent financings, followed by guidance updates and our view on cash flow generation. We refinanced about $114 million of near-term maturities during the quarter, pushing them out into 2026 and beyond, including loans at 3831 Technology Forest, Wingspan, and 6100 Merriweather. As a result, our 2025 maturities are down to just $76 million, which we expect to refinance before the end of the year. Turning to guidance, strong land sales across our MPCs led us to raise full-year EBT guidance to $450 million at the midpoint, up $20 million from prior guidance. 2025 will be another record-breaking year. Now, not every year will look like this, but it shows the power of our model when all cylinders are firing. Land sales bring residents, residents drive demand for retail and office, and that demand pushes land values even higher.

Operating assets also performed well this quarter, so we're reaffirming full-year NOI guidance of $267 million, which is another company record. Our ability to control supply within our MPCs, with little to no outside competition, continues to be a key advantage. On condos, we're adjusting our full-year revenue target slightly down $15 million to $360 million, reflecting a small timing shift for Ohlona closings into early 2026. Ohlona remains fully sold, and it's expected to deliver at break-even. More importantly, our future pipeline is stronger than ever, with $1.4 billion of pre-sales this quarter across Malia, Alima, and the Ritz-Carlton Residences in The Woodlands. This project will generate meaningful cash flows over the next five years. On G&A, we're maintaining guidance between $76 million and $86 million, with a midpoint of $81 million.

That excludes approximately $13 million of anticipated non-cash stock compensation, $10 million of severance expenses, and $4 million related to Pershing Square variable advisory fee incurred year to date. However, it does include $10 million for Pershing Square's base advisory fee, which we have largely offset through earlier workforce reductions and other cost efficiencies. Finally, given our outperformance, we are raising adjusted operating cash flow guidance to $440 million, or $7.86 per diluted share, up $30 million from our prior outlook. What is important is what we do with that cash flow. It is reinvested into our communities to generate even greater value. The projects David mentioned, from new condominium towers like Malia and Alima to value-creation developments like One Riva Row, are exactly where that cash goes, driving higher net asset value and future cash flow generation. With that, I will hand it over to Bill and Ryan.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thank you, Carlos. My update is really an update about our progress in acquiring an insurance company that will become a base really for the transformation of Howard Hughes into a diversified holding company. Good news is that we've made substantial progress. We identified a target. We've done a significant amount of due diligence. We've come to an agreement on price. The seller has begun drafting definitive agreements. We are still deep in the due diligence process. It is possible that something would emerge that would cause us not to go forward. Based on the work we've done to date, I'm actually growing confidence that a transaction will be completed. I would say we may be in a position to announce something as early as end of year or possibly in the first quarter. We're pleased with that progress.

I look forward to sharing more details, but a significant development for the company, for sure, assuming we can execute on this transaction. That is really my only announcement. The only other point I would make with respect to what Carlos said, our priority with respect to the cash flows that are generated from our real estate subsidiary are to invest whatever is required to continue to build kind of the best places for people to live in the country. The good news is, even after that reinvestment of cash into equity to build a downtown office buildings, apartments, the next condominium project, we project that Howard Hughes will generate the real estate subsidiary with substantially more cash than we can even spend in that division of the business.

Over time, that will generate cash that we can flow up to the holding company that will give us more flexibility in building out our diversified holding company strategy. With that, why don't we open it for questions?

Conference Operator: Thank you. As a reminder to ask a question, please press star 11 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star 11 again. Please stand by while we compile the Q&A roster. Our first question comes from the line of Anthony Paolone from JPMorgan.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Great. Thanks. Good morning. First question relates to just super pad sales. Those seem to be pretty successful in the quarter. Just wondering, how do you think of the trade-off of doing more of those and the NPV of just taking the discount and not having to do all the infrastructure and just letting those go versus holding them and taking them a little bit further down and selling more groups of lots as opposed to the super pad?

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Good morning, Tony. Thanks for the question. It's David. Look, I think that this was a rare situation where we had a piece of land. And if you remember from the time when you were in Summerlin, it's what we used to call the back bowl. It was due south of the Summit development. It was a particular piece of land that had an unusually high expense of bringing infrastructure to. In this unique situation, by selling that super pad at a lower net price per acre or lower gross price per acre, but higher net price per acre, we were able to generate great cash flow for the company. In general, going forward, we don't have another parcel like that.

You should expect us to transact on super pads going forward, consistent with the way we have the past several quarters at a much higher gross and net price per acre.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Okay. Got it. My other question just shifts more over to Bill and thinking about this insurance company that you've got teed up. Should we anticipate that after doing a deal like the one you're contemplating, that uses up the bulk of your sort of capital today, or do you think you'll have more capacity thereafter to do more deals? I'm just wondering kind of where this leaves you.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Sure. We think, one, it will consume the available cash that we have injected into the company. The reason why we are focused on insurance as sort of our first initiative is it is a business that we can contribute very significant value to. If you look at, again, if we take our Berkshire Hathaway model and look at what Buffett achieved over time, my estimate, our sort of estimate is something like 70-80% of the value of the company was created with the launch of insurance strategy and an approach to writing business that created a lot of flexibility for the insurer to, I would say, have more flexible investment approach.

Buffett historically wrote very little risk relative to capital and invested a relatively small amount of assets relative to capital, but invested those assets, about two-thirds of those assets in common stocks, and did so effectively. The beauty of insurance business is insurance generates a lot of cash. You do not need to issue stock every time you do a deal. The insurance business, you write premium, you collect cash, and over time you invest that capital and earn a return on the assets and hopefully make money on the insurance side of the business.

If we can achieve both of those objectives, combining kind of Pershing Square's investment expertise with a talented management team running a diversified insurance company platform, we think that asset alone can compound to grow to become a material, very significant contributor to the growth of the company, the growth of our intrinsic value over time. As the real estate subsidiary generates cash that's not needed in the real estate business, that's what's going to give us flexibility to make investments in other assets over time. Insurance is clearly our first priority.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Okay. Thanks for that.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Sure.

Conference Operator: Thank you. One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Alexander Goldfarb from Piper Sandler.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Hey. Good morning down there. Two questions. First, David, only 57% pre-sold on the new condos in Hawaii. I would expect better out of you guys. Just kidding. As far as Ward Village goes, where do you stand on the existing entitlements, meaning how many more can you build, and what is the status on phase two? Is that something that you could see approvals for and launch in the next few years, or phase two of Ward Village is something that's maybe 5 or 10 years out? Morning, Alex. Great question. Look, I would say that we're thrilled with our 57% presale of over $1.4 billion this quarter and see continued momentum as those projects are super unique and on the best remaining development site on the South Shore of Oahu.

In terms of the initial entitlements we had through the master development agreement at Ward Village, beyond these two towers, Malia and Alima, there is one more site that will use the remaining sq ft. Beyond that, we do have approval for an incremental sq ft, and that incremental sq ft could be between 2 million and 4 million, depending on the zoning upsizes we get by reinvesting into the community. We are already well underway in pre-development of incremental towers in addition to what we had by right under our original master development agreement.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Okay. That's helpful. Bill, following up on Anthony's question, I realize obviously there's a lot of confidentiality, but just big picture, can you just give us some color? Is this pure B2B as you described before, and is everything in this entity clean, or are there businesses that you'd want to exit or any legacy policies or legacy lines that need to be settled or anything like that?

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Look, I would say it's a very clean transaction for us. It's a platform, kind of a diversified insurance company platform that really fits the criteria that we've outlined. No business lines that we need to exit. It's not a consumer-facing insurer. Yeah.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Can you indicate whether it's domestic or Bermuda or somewhere offshore?

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: I would say it's as many insurers are as a domestic practice and an offshore practice.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Okay. Thank you, Bill.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thank you.

Conference Operator: Thank you. As a reminder to ask a question, please press star 11 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star 11 again. Our next question comes from the line of John Peterson from Jefferies.

Great. Thank you. Good morning, guys. Curious if you could maybe just give us a little more commentary on the Ritz-Carlton Residences at The Woodlands and how that is trending relative to your initial underwriting and then opportunities for other condo projects across the portfolio. Clearly, Ward Village has been a big success, and you're kind of translating that over to The Woodlands. Where else might we see future condo projects across your portfolio?

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: I'll take the first part of your question. This has been a bit of a tussle between me and David O'Reilly in the sense that the team designed an absolutely spectacular project, first of its kind in The Woodlands. I took a look at this project, and I said, "Ugh, we're giving it away at these prices." I said, "You know what? The community just needs to see this thing built before. You know what? Do not sell any more than half the units." That was our deal. I stepped off as Chair of the Board. Unbeknownst to me, David's been sneaking out a few units because he achieved prices that he just felt he obligated to sell. Is that really the answer?

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: No. We're hitting record high prices.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Yeah. David's continued to look, I think it's tremendous value. For the buyers in the market, I mean, I compare the quality as what you might call billionaire row quality, like 220 Central Park South, if you know the building, also a Robert Stern design in New York City that achieved just massive, massive premium over everything else in the market. This is that kind of building, but it's really the first condominium built in The Woodlands. We just felt that we should be very judicious about the way we sell units. We could have sold the entire project on a presale basis. When you compare to Hawaii, Hawaii, we're extremely well established. Everyone knows the quality of the product that we build.

While the team continues to kind of raise price weekly as we sell units, the general goal in Hawaii is to sell 100% of the project or nearly 100% before we even put a shovel in the ground, right? Which is saying, whereas in we just felt in that light of the fact we're delivering a first of its kind in The Woodlands that we would achieve a better outcome if we were kind of slow-walked units until the project is open. I'm hoping David is going to keep some units so I can prove my point about what we're going to achieve when people can actually see the finished product. No doubt. We're about 75% sold now. We have a little over a year before we're ready to welcome our first units, our first residents into those units.

We're optimistic that the remaining units that we're holding back right now will be able to sell upon completion when people can see, touch, and feel the incredible quality that we're going to deliver. To the second half of your question, John, there are a couple of sites in addition to the Ritz-Carlton site for future condo projects in The Woodlands. We're evaluating those real-time, determining where we think deep demand will be, what price per foot that is, what size of units are, etc. We're also evaluating a couple of sites in and around Summerlin where we could leverage the expertise and skill of our team in Ward Village across the rest of our portfolio to deliver great cash flow results for the company.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Okay. All right. That's very helpful. And then maybe a second question.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: I got a question for David. What's the spread in price per square foot we've achieved on the later sold units versus the first sold units in The Woodlands? How much have the price per square foot gone up on a kind of comparable unit? One of the challenging parts is that with the Bob Stern design, there are very few comparable units. In general, we've seen from kind of our initial sales to where we are today, about $350-$400 a sq ft.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Increase.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Increase.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: is the average sale price now per square foot?

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Really high.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Okay.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: It's a good precise number.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Scientific term.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: You understand the point. This is the kind of asset that I think to generate the maximize the profit. We do not have, we are not like a typical developer that has to sell all the units before we can get a construction loan. For us, we can be thoughtful about the pace of sale to maximize the NPV of the project.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Okay. All right. That makes sense. Then Terra Vallis, I was in the Phoenix airport recently, saw you guys have some advertisements up there to lure people out to that community. I'm just curious. I mean, just remind me, what should we be expecting in terms of MPC land sales maybe in 2026, or maybe if you want to give me a multi-year outlook, just remind me on where you guys are at on rolling that out.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Yeah. Absolutely. We are in a great spot right now. We have sold about 1,000 lots year to date in Terra Vallis, and that will be enough to keep us busy for the near-term future. I think you may be able to see us sell some incremental lots in 2026, but 2027 will probably be a year where we re-up after those lots that we sold this year end up in the hands of residents and homebuyers. We are excited this Friday. We have our official grand opening at Terra Vallis. We have already sold our first few lots to different residents that will be constructing their homes right now. We are incredibly excited with the progress that we have seen and how fast this community has come together.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Sounds great. Thank you. That's all for me. Thank you.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thanks, John. Thank you.

Conference Operator: Thank you. One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Alexander Goldfarb from Piper Sandler.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thank you for taking a follow-up. David, I realize that it's not the fourth quarter and we have to hold off on guidance, but still, the pace of your increases, especially in the land business, have been pretty incredible this year. Is there something sort of a ballpark? I think you're tracking $440 million at the midpoint for 2025. Is there something that we should be thinking of for 2026? Either, one, we don't get too far ahead of ourselves, or maybe the pace that you've delivered this year is sort of a new run rate is something sustainable?

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Alex, I think it is pretty early right now to feel comfortable providing any sort of guidance on 2026 land sales. I think that 2025 has been remarkable. We've raised guidance twice. Clearly, we didn't expect to see this strength when we gave guidance a little bit less than a year ago. I think that at this point, I would not advise anyone to extrapolate this year's results into growing further into the future. I think we're going to take it quarter by quarter. We're going to see how many homes we sell in our communities, and we're going to sell just enough land to keep up with that at the highest price per acre we possibly can.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: It's not going to hurt if rates come down, obviously. Continue to come down.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: No. I think that we've achieved these results given the quality of our community as people chase higher quality of life, shorter commutes, more connectivity to nature into these master-planned communities.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: I mean, the more higher rates.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: The more like New York and California move socialist, the more that people want to go to capitalist states like Texas and Las Vegas. The flexibility has been strong.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Bill, I'm impressed. It only took 26 minutes for that. David, as you look at your inventory, do you feel right now there's a good balance between what the builders have bought versus their ability to deliver, or do you think they're a little long on land or a little short on land? I'm just trying to get a sense of the appetite from the homebuilders to buy more right now.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: I would tell you that we're selling land to the homebuilders only to keep up with underlying home sales in our communities, and that strategy won't change. We try to keep them at an appropriate supply, which I would argue is between 12-18 months of finished lots or vacant developed lots. They're a little bit undersupplied right now, but we like to be a little bit undersupplied and then a little bit oversupplied when we have the opportunity.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thank you.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thanks, Alex.

Conference Operator: Thank you. At this time, I would now like to turn the conference back over to David O'Reilly for closing remarks.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: I want to thank everyone again for joining us today. As always, if there's any follow-up or any questions we weren't able to get to, we are always available and look forward to seeing you all soon. Thank you.

Bill Ackman, Executive Chairman, Howard Hughes Holdings: Thanks so much.

Joe Valane, General Counsel, Howard Hughes Holdings: Bye-bye.

Conference Operator: This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

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